Currently I’m running some services though Docker on a Proxmox VM. Before I had Proxmox, I thought containers were a very clean way of organizing my system. I’m currently wondering if I can just install the services I always use on the VM directly. What are the pros and cons of that?

  • corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca
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    7 hours ago

    Pros:

    • better validation of installation and content, as long as you’re otherwise set for that.
    • easier setup
    • easier management
    • easier teardown
    • simpler firewalling

    Cons: (vs docker-on-vm)

    • your homelab isn’t someone resume
  • sylver_dragon@lemmy.world
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    22 hours ago

    I see containers as having a couple of advantages:

    1. Separation of dependencies - while not as big of issue as it used to be, just knowing that you won’t end up with the requirements for one application conflicting with another is one less issue to worry about. Additionally, you can do anything you want to one container, without having an effect on another container. You don’t get stuck wanting to reboot or revert the system, but not wanting to break a different running service.
    2. Portability - Eventually, you are going to replace the OS of that VM (at least, you should). Moving a container to a new OS is dead simple. Re-installing an application on a new OS, moving data and configs can be anywhere from easy to a pain in the arse, depending on the software.
    3. Easier fall back - Have you ever upgraded an application and had everything go to shit? In my years working as a sysadmin, I lost way too many evenings to this sort of bullshit. And while VM snapshots should make reverting easy, sometimes it just didn’t work out that way. Containers force enough separation of applications that you can do just about anything to one container and not effect others.
    4. Less dependency on a single install - Have you ever had a system just get FUBAR, and after a few hours of digging the answer seems to be, just format the drive and start over? Maybe you tried some weird application out and the uninstall wasn’t really clean. By having all that crap happen in containers, you can isolate the damage. Nuke the container, nuke the image, and the base OS is still clean.
    5. Easier version testing - Want to try out upgrading to version 2 of an application, but worried that it may not be fully baked yet or the new configs may take a while to get right? Do it off in a separate container on a copy of the data. You can do this with VMs and snapshots; but, I find containers to be less overhead.

    That all said, if an application does not have an official container image, the added complexity of creating and maintaining your own image can be a significant downside. One of my use cases for containers is running game servers (e.g. Valheim). There isn’t an official image; so, I had to roll my own. The effort to set this up isn’t zero and, when trying to sort out an image for a new game, it does take me a while before I can start playing. And those images need to be updated when a new version of the game releases. Technically, you can update a running container in a lot of cases; but, I usually end up rebuilding it at some point anyway.

    I’d also note that, careful use of VMs and snapshots can replicate or mitigate most of the advantages I listed. I’ve done both (decade and a half as a sysadmin). But, part of that “careful use” usually meant spinning up a new VM for each application. Putting multiple applications on the same OS install was usually asking for trouble. Eventually, one of the applications would get borked and having the flexibility to just nuke the whole install saved a lot of time and effort. Going with containers removed the need to nuke the OS along with the application to get a similar effect.

    At the end of the day, though. It’s your box, you do what you are most comfortable with and want to support. If that’s a monolithic install, then go for it. While I, or other might find containers a better answer for us, maybe it isn’t for you.

  • traches@sh.itjust.works
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    1 day ago

    Cons of containers are slightly worse disk and memory consumption.

    Pros:

    • ease of installation
    • declarative configuration
    • security
    • dependency management is solved

    Stick with the containers

  • trilobite@lemmy.ml
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    1 day ago

    I’ve been asking myself the same question for a while. The container inside a VM is my setup too. It feels like the container in the VM in the OS is a bit of an onion approach which has pros and cons. If u are on low powered hardware, I suspect having too many onion layers just eat up the little resources you have. On the other hand, as Scott@lem.free.as suggests, it easier to run a system, update and generally maintain. It would be good to have other opinion on this. Note that not all those that have a home lab have good powered labs. I’m still using two T110’s (32GB ECC ram) that are now quite dated but are sufficient for my uses. They have Truenas scale installed and one VM running 6 containers. It’s not fast, but its realiable.

    • CameronDev@programming.dev
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      22 hours ago

      Container overhead is near zero. They are not virtualized or anything like that, they are just processes on your host system that are isolated. Its functionally not much more different to chroot.

  • Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works
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    1 day ago

    Personally, I always like to use containers when possible. Keep in mind that unlike virts, containers have very minimal overhead. So there really is no practical cost to using them, and they provide better (though not perfect) security and some amount of sandboxing for every application.

    Containers mean that you never have to worry about whether your VM is running the right versions of certain libraries. You never have to be afraid of breaking your setup by running a software update. They’re simpler, more robust and more reliable. There are almost no practical arguments against using them.

    And if you’re running multiple services the advantages only multiply because now you no longer have to worry about running a bespoke environment for each service just to avoid conflicts.

    • machinin@lemmy.worldOP
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      1 day ago

      Copying a response I wrote on another comment -

      Thanks for this - the one advantage I’m noticing is that to update the services I’m running, I have to rebuild the container. I can’t really just update from the UI if an update is available. I can do it, it is just somewhat of a nuisance.

      How often are there issues with dependencies? Is that a problem with a lot of software these days?

      • killabeezio@lemm.ee
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        8 hours ago

        Ok but containers generally have a lot less dependencies. If you are making your own images, then you know exactly how to rebuild them. In the event something happens, it makes it much easier to get up and running again and also remember what you did to get the service running. The only other thing that would be better is Nix.

        If you use an image that someone is maintaining, this makes it even easier and there are services out there that will keep your containers up to date when a new image is available. You can also just automate your image builds to run nightly and keep it up to date.

      • Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works
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        21 hours ago

        There’s no good answer to that because it depends entirely on what you’re running. In a magical world where every open source project always uses the latest versions of everything while also maintaining extensive backwards compatibility, it would never be a problem. And I would finally get my unicorn and rainbows would cure cancer.

        In practice, containers provide a layer of insurance that it just makes no sense to go without.