The proposed update to Switzerland’s Ordinance on the Surveillance of Postal and Telecommunications Traffic (VÜPF: Verordnung über die Überwachung des Post- und Fernmeldeverkehrs) represents a significant expansion of state surveillance powers, worse than the surveillance powers of the USA. If enacted, it would have serious consequences for encrypted services such as Threema, an encrypted WhatsApp alternative and Proton Mail as well as VPN providers based in Switzerland.
This is the first thing I’ve ever disliked about Switzerland (not that I know a lot about the country).
You’ve not heard of shady banking, Nazi gold, reluctance to stop dealing with Russia, women not being able to vote until the 70s, and Nestle?
Switzerland gets aggressively simped for online, and there’s certainly some nice things about them, but there’s also some pretty awful things.
Those are all very bad, but on the other hand their flag is a big plus.
It’s also a big red flag.
But on the minus side, it’s a cross
Yeah, the whole “private banking” history thing the EFF seems to lionize in the article was 100% just for serving lucrative international robber barrons and other criminals. It was never about protecting regular citizens privacy.
I meant current times, not in the past. Sorry, I assumed that would be obvious. There are also some things I like about Germany, though they have a pretty terrible past.
The Nazi gold is still very much a thing. And the descendants of Jewish people who died in concentration camps are often unsuccessful in reclaiming any wealth that was stored in Swiss banks, because they don’t have death certificates and what not. Switzerland is incredibly stubborn and selfish when it comes to anything that would tarnish their neutral stance in banking and politics.
Nazi gold didn’t disappear after the Nazis fell. They still pocketed it all, despite knowing where all that wealth came from, and did fuck all to help rebuild Europe.
Other things like their appeasing attitude towards Russia, reluctance to allow weapons exports to Ukraine, and willingness to export weapons to awful regimes are all unambiguously current.
Huh. On the surface, they don’t sound very neutral on the weapons stuff 😕. TIL. I wonder what their underlying reasoning for this is
Money, it’s always money…
Strong means attractive. Not getting pummeled in WWII and making some profits, being complicit in some crimes (turning back Jews), and in general being on top for many decades make you look strong.
Hold up now! I’ll have you know in some parts of the country women couldn’t vote until the 90s! Also unmarried cohabitation was illegal in some cantons until the 80s and paternity leave as a concept only exists in Switzerland since the 00s.
US is still lacking that last item…
My theory is that if you’re cute you’re socially protected and the same applies to states and countries. Switzerland is quite the nice place and there are cultural hubs of historical importance, so it has the cute look now doesn’t it.
Reluctance to stop dealing with Russia is a single positive in the list.
Oh look, one of Lemmy’s many resident tankies.
Oh look, another one who’s brain has been melted by propaganda.
There’s a reason every billionair has a bank account in Switzerland.
And it’s not to pay more taxes. Or to launder less money.
What this says is billionaires are entitled to privacy to hoard their $$$ but nobody else is for everyday life.
Ah, yes. The country that formerly let you have anonymous secret bank accounts.
You account is anonymous only if you have over a billion.
No fucking way, but mah direct democracy …
So. Switzerland doesn’t really have fully direct democracy in the necessary sense. It’s still an old nation-state with laws made in the olden day when you had to compromise. There are many cases where the “direct” part is optional and requires interested people to assemble signatures yadda-yadda. Not good enough to counter a campaign for legal change with a goal. That aside, its system encourages it to have politicians as a thing. Which means that for some issues it will always drift shitward.
It also has separation of 3 kinds of government by degree of locality, but not separation of the “an entity ensuring food safety can’t regulate telecommunications” or “an entity regulating police labor safety can’t regulate riot police acceptable action” kinds.
(Which is why I usually refer to my preference for a kind of “direct democracy” as a revised one-level Soviet system with mandatory rotation, plenty of places and sortition to state worker roles, despite that not having very good connotations.)
Democracy is an infant still learning to walk. You plug the holes and add new institutions for oversight. You don’t shoot the damn baby and start over because you know how you’d force everyone to do it.
Kowloon wasn’t built in a day.
Democracy is an infant still learning to walk.
Bullshit. It’s older than gunpowder.
And this argument has been used for every political system in history. Even in USSR in materials approved by censors it was normal to joke about it.
You plug the holes and add new institutions for oversight.
Why don’t you do that with real-life mechanisms? A moving part of a machine has corroded enough to have a hole unintended by design. Go on, plug it. Oh, it’s better to replace the part.
That aside, I think you’ve missed my specific arguments, not providing any of your own. Those things about participation as wide as possible and rotation. This means that there should be as many political roles as possible (of a delegate or of a secretary or of anyone), often rotated, with the same person not being able to hold the same or similar post for longer than N months, and with sortition based on some pseudo-random mechanism (pseudo-random to be able to check the results for fraud). To reduce the power of any single delegate or bureaucrat and to make lobbying, bribing and blackmailing them harder. To simultaneously make the population more politically literate - by almost every citizen, ideally, participating in some kind of daily decision-making work. Not voting once a year (at best) from among choices given to them by someone else.
That’s what con artists do - provide the victim with an illusion of choice.
You don’t shoot the damn baby and start over because you know how you’d force everyone to do it.
That’s exactly what you do. One consistent system does one thing by design. Another consistent system does another thing by design. Something in-between organically evolved does neither. Evolution is the survival of the fittest - fittest for survival. So an organically evolved system is approximating the optimum of power. The status quo.
What it does not approximate over time is any idea of public good. That would be nuts - so, metaphorically, you’ve built a wooden bridge, do you think it’ll become more or less reliable over time under snow and rain and sun? Is a 100 years old bridge better than a bridge just built and tested?
And the optimum of power is formed by the existing system among other things.
Which means that it becomes more and more static and degenerate.
Con artists are also known for seeding bits of truth in with their turgid morass.
There are parts of your monologue I’d agree with, but I suspect what your ultimate intent is.
Bullshit. It’s older than gunpowder.
Compared to how long humanity lived in absolutistic systems (dawn of civilization).
So. Switzerland doesn’t really have fully direct democracy in the necessary sense.
Yes, it’s half-direct, who said otherwise? Fully direct on a Nation state level would maybe be possible now with the Internet.
But we can still overrule them, while germans get tired of their politicians lying on elections and doing what they want. Doesn’t mean they don’t try here.But yeah, this system has it’s weaknesses with complicated or emotional topics. But then again, we are all humans.
Fully direct on a Nation state level would maybe be possible now with the Internet.
That’s my point. It might seem dangerous to rely on the Internet for such basic matters, but it’s already being used to great effect to undermine all democracies. So there’s no choice, it’s like an arms race. (Still, probably for elections it’d make sense to have a countrywide parallel intranet, so that someone’s error in setting up a BGP router wouldn’t disrupt it.).
But yeah, this system has it’s weaknesses with complicated or emotional topics. But then again, we are all humans.
That’s the other side of the problem - modern easiness of propaganda.
OK, I live in Russia, just rather sad to see how many other countries are slowly drifting in the same regrettable unsavory direction.
It’s still an old nation-state with laws made in the olden day when you had to compromise.
What democracy does not rely on compromise?
None. I’m using “compromise” here in the sense of compromising between democracy and elites, with the world order normal 200 years ago. Today those compromises don’t work because of technological progress and different makeup of societies.
Just like those in the USA.
Isnt Switzerland the country that struggled with their covid response because of the direct democracy requirements lacking provisions for such changes…amazing they can figure everything out to hurt the public.
I visited Switzerland just after the vaccines dropped. The Swiss COVID response far surpassed the response in the United States. They rolled out a nation-wide app for vaccination attestation, and any museum, restaurant, etc. could scan a QR code on someone’s phone with a phone. But do they have a scary, socially reactionary subset of their population? Yes.
In some harmful ways they are fanatically culturally conservative. But they also care about community, sustainability, health, the well-being of children, environmental preservation, organization, and self-reliance. Being a small, rich, homogeneous, topographically-isolated country drives these characteristics.
Surveillance State developments are depressing but not surprising.
Thanks for the informative comment, a response that outshines the US is literally anything to be fair.
Switzerland ‽ really ?
Holy shit. An actual interrobang.
This is like finding a shiny.
Tattorack uses octothorpe. It’s not very effective!
First I’m finding out a ligature exists. Awesome.
If I have to fucking switch mail hosts again… what the hell is the point in using proton for privacy and now I’m sure that’s going to get ruined.
Wasn’t there an announcement from proton a few days back to possibly move their data Centers out of Switzerland because of this?
One would hope so, or their fundamental ethics as a company are nonexistent.
I self host mine. Honestly I just self host as much as I can to avoid stuff like this because while many European companies are great you just never know. I was with Tuta but decided to self host, same for when I was using Filen for backups. Hell I’m even self hosting my git repos and search engine now.
“In a democracy, the right way is to argue, not threaten to leave.” Socialist member of parliament said.
Does this man understand the very first day this law would approve Proton is dead? Do politicians understand privacy at all?
I know this and i know that political systems in Switzerland are really unique. I think this kind of thing can pass despite the robust involvement of the civil society, mostly because it’s an update on a preexisting law. But this is something I can’t tell as of now.
switzerland was never a utopia for anybody except corporations, billionaires, and nazis. their “neutrality” was nothing more than an excuse for unregulated capitalism.
Powers that would make the US blush!? Give me a fucking break. The US spies on all communication in the entire world.
Proton is a joke and their CEO is an obvious fascist. It was stupid to think a corporation is the answer to privacy anyways. They obey all countries rules and turn over your information the moment they are asked by governments.
The future of privacy in Switzerland is in the hands of the citizens. Let’s hope they make the right decisions and encourage them to do so.
If these corporations really cared about privacy they would be promoting laws to make it enshrined in our constitutions. The reality is privacy is just another way to market to the masses who don’t know better.
My cynical side says these “privacy” focused corporations not wanting privacy to be enshrined in law is because then every business would be privacy minded and their marketing advantage would quickly disappear.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Everything goes to shit.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Switch to Proton Switch to Proton Switch to Proton Switch to Proton Switch to Proton Switch to Proton
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Its always the next thing, and the next thing and the next thing. What’s the new proton everyone will annoy the fuck out of us with?
This is why I stopped giving a shit. Actually. I do give a shit. I will let them surveil all of my shits, and garbage, and vomit.
