More and more I see that a lot of people who think they’re “nice” are just lazy and largely uprincipled people who assume that they’re doing good simply because they have good intentions and they’re not actively creating problems.
Don’t forget, supporting the status quo and doing the popular thing, regardless of how hypocritical it is.
What gets me is how openly hypocritical people are becoming. There is no more shame. I notice that many of the ‘principled’ people think their principles do not apply to them. Only other people that they don’t like.
I’m not even talking politics. Often in personal relationships people will tell you how lying is awful, but then lie themselves and justify it by claiming that everyone else is doing it or that they had to do it because they are ‘disadvantaged’.
The system isn’t formed based on the wills of individuals, nor is there an inherent “nice” or “mean” quality to people. If we all decide we want to live in a perfect utopia, that still won’t take form, because that’s not how societal progression works. We live in capitalism, because capitalism emerged from preceding modes of production like feudalism. It wasn’t a choice people made, but an economic progression on the basis of private property and free-moving capital, which leads us to today where a tiny handful own the lion’s share of production.
Capitalism is riddled with contradictions, however, and these contradictions sharpen over time. We move onto socialism by organizing, where we can actually take control of production and run it along a common plan to suit the needs of the people.
Edit: figured it’s a good chance to plug my introductory Marxist-Leninist reading list, if what I said makes sense to you!
Socialism only works in small coherent groups. It doesn’t scale. You can run a socialist business, or group, or town. Sure. People are generally pro socialism when it’s amongst their own tribe.
You can’t run a socialist multi-ethnic society for millions of people. Human tribalism.
All the socialists I know seem to have a hate hard on for working class people. At least where I live.
To the contrary, socialism can only work at scale. Small-scale cooperation exists, yes, but isn’t really “socialism” as we understand it. A business cannot be “socialist,” socialism is a descriptor for an entire mode of production, not a quantum unit of an economy. Socialism is a mode of production where public ownership is the principle aspect, and regularly is proven to be superior to capitalism. The largest economy in the world by PPP is socialist, the PRC, and it’s a broad, diverse, multi-ethnic society of billions.
I think you’d do well to research more on socialism. “Human tribalism” is more of a response to immediate conditions within capitalism, a system dominated by private property. It isn’t some eternal genetic fault in humans, over time we have become increasingly interconnected and interdependent. Socialism is the natural evolution from that point now that capitalism has already centralized the broad majority of production, meaning coherent and deliberate planning of the economy is more feasible.
You can’t research socialism on a large scale because it has never existed.
You’re arguing from an ideal. I’m arguing from reality. I look at evidence, not theoretical constructs of how the world ‘should’ be. ’
PRC is not socialist dude. You are straight up delusional. It’s autocratic capitalism. They pivoted to that after Maoism was a titanic failure. But hey, don’t like history or facts get in the way of the fantasy in your head that you got from reading a few books?
Socialism has existed on a large scale for over a century. The USSR was the first, and now we have countries like Cuba, Vietnam, the PRC, etc, all economies where public ownership is the principle aspect of society. I’m not arguing from an “ideal,” I’m speaking purely about existing material reality. Using the PRC as an example, the large firms and key industries are overwhelmingly publicly owned:
The PRC did introduce Reform and Opening Up after struggles within the Cultural Revolution and the Gang of Four. These reforms didn’t change that public ownership is still the principle aspect of the economy, though. Private and cooperative ownership existed even under Mao, and economic growth was positive under Mao, just unstable, which the market reforms and introduction of special economic zones helped make stable and regular:
Pre-Reform and Opening Up
Post-Reform and Opening UpYou didn’t bring any facts to the table or any analysis, you just said “no” then insulted me. It"s insulting and utterly insufficient for proving your claims.
It can certainly feel that way. And I do think there is no such thing as an ethical billionaire, if by favouring assholes you mean rewarding monetarily.
I argue though, that without kindness there would be no societies. Even if the parable of the Margaret Mead’s healed femur isn’t true, the fact remains that there are in fact those who help, and they are probably more plentiful than those who hurt. They’re just harder to spot, because media makes money off emotions and fear and anger are stronger than hope.
To quote Mr Rogers “look for the helpers”, because they are there. And if you’re not seeing them, maybe it’s time for a news break. Including social media, just for a week. And then see how you are feeling. I have to take breaks now and then, and I promise it helps.
Darwin talked about societies and advancement in species around communication. It is important for us to be able to communicate threats in order to build community. Assholes don’t build lasting societies.
People who don’t realize that tolerance is a social contract will tolerate assholism, which abets the assholing.
That’s got to stop.
Yeah. Now stop being afraid and stand up to the fucking bullies. Now watch as they change the definition of “intolerant”.
“Standing up to a bully that wants to kill you? That’s Intolerant!”.
Sound familiar? The nazi with the giant hole in his neck? Oh no, I’m being intolerant. The christian terrorist nazi psychopath with the giant hole in his neck.
You won’t have a chance to be intolerant of the nazis very soon, if you don’t start fighting against the nazis in effective ways.
Ok but how do we deal with… you know… those people who destroy community for profits, who undermine us by exposing us with global competition, the people who promote laws like “right to work” and “no child left behind” to break our organizations against their power asymmetry while making us dumber and weaker, the people who rig the system with a smile without saying even one slur ?
Do we have to tolerate them if they duck us by the rules ?
That makes sense actually
WTF didn’t Popper include that obvious fact ?
Was it just taken for granted in the post world wars that assholes catch bullets ?I do wish we could stop confusing tolerance with active support though. I don’t need to be on your team to tolerate you or your lifestyle. In fact, we don’t even need to acknowledge each other’s existence to be tolerant of one another. We just need to let each other exist unimpeded.
Nice people are unwilling to do the things necessary to stop assholes. Nice people won’t berate them, most won’t call them out, etc etc.
Nice people will also turn on those of us who do call them out. Standing up to popular bully is the fastest way to get people to turn on you.
Popularity is what people care about. As long as violence is against unpopular people, it’s great.
The assholes bought everything up, including the law and politicians. They rigged the game so no one else can climb the same ladder they did. But, also, death throes look like this. They positioned themselves so that the entire populous of the earth can’t sustain life, unless they don’t. That imbalance is about to be corrected. It’s gunna get a little bit worse before it gets better though, hang on.
Sadly, I think that’s the way it’s been since the beginning of humanity and I don’t see it ever changing.
Richard Dawkins lays this out nicely in The Selfish Gene.
Education is the best way to fight ignorance. Yes, there wasn’t much education more than a hundred or two years ago.
There are plenty of places on Earth right now that are functioning societies with mostly happy people. So stop being a defeatist pig headed asshole, please.
Get some education. Get others education. Keep educating if you want the world to act educated, and not barbaric. It’s really that simple, and it’s why the barbarians always gut all education first.
what kind of education?
plenty of education is about instilling ignorance and hate in people. plenty of ‘educated’ people are the ones creating the vitriol because it’s financailly beneficial for them. Most of the right wing nutjobs are just doing it for money.
Seems like I struck a nerve.
Considering you know nothing about me , it’s interesting that you call me uneducated. Yet haven’t bothered to educate yourself about me.
I think you 2 might be 2 sides of the same coin. You started with “Sadly” which would infer you don’t think it’s ideal but simply the reality. You’ve probably been called a pessimist more than once for expressing your realistic opinions.
On one side we want progress and equality, on the other, we recognize that tribes, cities, and nations, were built on conquering others. That mindset idealistically should be in the past but we of course still see too many examples of how relevant those issues are.
Thank you for a solid response. You understood my comment perfectly
A bummer because im naturally nice and i get upset at people who aren’t. I just dont get it. I feel awful if I’m mean or something by accident or get misinterpreted. I wonder what it is, because my parents are not very nice people.
I grew up in a household full of hateful bigoted ignorant people. I’m aware of the consequences of that.
People who didn’t grow up with that experience aren’t. I noticed most of the hateful ignorant people I meet grew up with ‘supportive’ parents… and basically were isolated form the consequences of their actions. They don’t have ot be nice or kind… because they will get what they want regardless of how they behave because money and power and privileged.
These are also the same people who think anyone who doesn’t have a elite degree or wear designer clothing is subhuman. They think they are inherently superior to other human beings because they possess these things… which were given to them by their wealthy families and they operated under the delusion that anyone who doesn’t have those things just didn’t work hard as they did. And anyone who doesn’t want them… is mentally ill.
You need to be a bit of an asshole to stand up against assholes. Nice people dont want to be assholes and bend over backwards to make concessions and accommodations.
See, there are three kinds of people: dicks, pussies, and assholes. Pussies think everyone can get along, and dicks just want to fuck all the time without thinking it through. But then you got your assholes. And all the assholes want is to shit all over everything. So pussies may get mad at dicks once in a while, because pussies get fucked by dicks. But dicks also fuck assholes! And if they didn’t fuck the assholes, you know what you’d get? You’d get your dick and your pussy all covered in shit!
True wisdom in them there words
There is a difference (to me) of what constitutes an asshole. They are hateful pricks with no concern for others.
You dont need to be an asshole to fight one, you just need to be brave enough to fight one. Of course, they are assholes and they fight dirty, you will get dirty in the process.
First step, dont be a Asshole. After that dont support one. Then, dont raise any. Finally stand up to them.
It damages my calm on a daily basis. Our society rewards sociopathy. It’s that simple. And I fucking hate it.
I’ve noticed this. Even in small groups of ‘community’ minded people. The sociopaths always rise to the top and the good honest people get pushed aside. And people LOVE it. Because the sociopaths tell people what they want to hear and people love being lied to.
And nothing pisses off a sociopath more when you aren’t swayed by their bullshit or offer deference to their status. They get so angry with you and they will then character assassinate you, usually by spreading lies and rumors. And people eat it up because they’d rather believe in dramatic bullshit lies than the truth in front of their faces.
In my own circles, I tend to counter this by employing radical honesty, being extremely data driven, and calling out bullshit extremely aggressively whenever I possibly can. It for sure alienates people sometimes, but the people who are alienated tend to be the people who are also psychopaths, so I genuinely do not care about that “drawback”.
The assholes generally take charge because they are self-aggrandizing assholes. I genuinely believe most people are good and trying to just get by. It is very hard to not be distracted by the mountains of daily life struggles one has to wade through because of the power hungry assholes.
They make daily struggles to distract you from them. Really.
If you can’t afford to eat, you can’t organize protests.
If you can’t afford a phone, you can’t organize protests.
If you can’t afford electricity, you can’t organize protests.
If you have to deal with christian extremist brainwashed children from religious schools, you can’t organize protests.
ETfuckingC…
If you don’t do it soon, you won’t be healthy enough to do it in the future as your healthcare is being taken away.
There are more assholes than good people because assholery typically delivers better results in terms of wealth, power, and status, and good people have to accept a lower social status in order to maintain their goodness, but most people don’t fall into either category.
But the vast majority of people fall into an apathetic middle ground where they don’t really think too much about any kind of moral consistency and act according to paths they’re already on and the rules those paths require.
Yeah that’s accurate. I accept lower social status for my goodness.
Turns out other people don’t admire that. They admire assholes and they tend to think anyone who isn’t seeking wealth, power, and status is mentally deficient. At least in USA. I have been told many times that me not rent-seeking and exploiting others is ‘being lazy’.
I know it may seem that way if you’re constantly online these days, but in general most people are just people. Like 80% are mostly good, but human, and may have some minor issues. Probably 10% are Jesus-level good, then 10% are sociopathically evil.
Now, if by society you mean “American capitalism”, then yes that favors assholes who care less about their fellow humans. This flavor of capitalism is inherently selfish and greedy, so those who succeed in it are the most greedy and bad people. Yes people care, but the forces preventing anyone from changing it are the strongest in the history of human civilization with technology too now, that makes it borderline impossible to change the underlying system. Only a major catastrophe caused by capitalism where millions of Americans died would cause the general populace to question the system, but honestly even then who fucking knows.
No. We live in a society that favors good people for the most part and it’s getting better, just not for the US and it’s toadies.
And all the bad people from the good countries move to the US so that they can beg the US to invade their own nation in order to become toadie leader #53.What’s happening right now is that this US hegemonic system is falling apart.
This is going to be an unpopular opinion because most people like to think of themselves as nice. I think it’s not so much that there are nice people and assholes, but rather that almost everyone is an asshole some of the time.
pretty much. and most people think you’re an asshole if you disagree with them.
can’t tell you how many times I get told I am an asshole for not being into professional sports. for example. i think it’s pretty harmless, but for pro-sports fanatics I’m a heathen to their religion.
