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In the long run it’s dumb and cringe.
Source: I’m American and old.
The cheapest sort of pride is national pride; for if a man is proud of his own nation, it argues that he has no qualities of his own of which he can be proud; otherwise he would not have recourse to those which he shares with so many millions of his fellowmen. The man who is endowed with important personal qualities will be only too ready to see clearly in what respects his own nation falls short, since their failings will be constantly before his eyes. But every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority.
Arthur Schopenhauer
It may a 200 year old quote, but the only thing that has changed is that we have since found even worse things to be proud of.
I am proud of my nation and its progressive, socialist nature, yet I am fully, and painfully so, aware of it’s shortcomings and problems.
But despite the problems, it’s extremely hard for me not to feel pride for the way we handle things within and without, especially in comparison to the rest of the world. We’ve been consistently at the top of the most socially progressive charts of the world, having also been denoted the worlds happiest country for over 5 years in row, and so on.
I do have my own prides, things I’m not ashamed to claim being very good at, and I do have a lot of very loud criticism against my nation too. But I remain overall proud just because we dare to be, against most odds, progressive and socialist.
I would defend my country, even picking up arms, because the chances are, the invader will simply be worse. Lead to worse overall situation here. Anyone surpassing us on either social or progressive counts, would be almost certainly not invading anyone, let alone us.
Maybe I am the fool the quote talks about, the good-at-nothing simpleton falling back to national pride for lack of any of my own. But I do not feel like one and I certainly have a lot more, explicitly outside the concept of a nation and this specific nation too, prides and accomplishments to be proud of.
I don’t think national pride is all that bad. I think it can be reasonable if the nation is best at its class on things most important and dear to you. Of course most national pride around the world is rooted on shitty stuff, and most nationally pride people usually being neo-nazi assholes, yet I still remain steadfast in my opinion that it need not be so.
It can be fine. I am sure of that.
It’s hard to comment on the flavors of national pride in nations other than the one I live in, but I think if you’re an American patriot, you either 1) are proud of horrendous, immoral things, 2) are proud of a mythologized nation-state that stands for liberty and justice which never actually existed.
all patriotism is tribalism: i.e. undeserved vicarious pride in accomplishments one had no part in achieving
Like sports clubs, but deadlier
And they are all based on lies because every nation was founded in a bloodbath
Eh, I’m proud to be an American. But I also generally like the people around me, and when I think of “Americans”, I think of my friends who I like. I’d also note that I’m pretty proud to be a Coloradan. Our state government kicks ass!
It’s a coping mechanism that gives people who achieved nothing in their life something to brag about
Fucking thank you, this is so much more concise than what I wrote and encapsulates it fully
like sports clubs but a bit deadlier
Some of my life-achievements involved contributing to my nation.
Ok, good, that’s you, a productive citizen following the social contract
BUT
Most people who wear the flag and shout that they are patriots have been nothing but leeches on the nation
Good for you man, but in this case I guess that you’re proud of yourself and in the achievements that helped the people around you.
You don’t have “second hand pride with extra narrative on top” from people that died long before you were bornYou don’t have “second hand pride with extra narrative on top” from people that died long before you were born
The individualists in this thread are saying:
- Your personal conduct didn’t form your nation
- And personal conduct is the only valid source of pride
- Therefore you can’t be proud of your nation
And I don’t agree with the 2nd premise at all. People are social beings and there’s lots of examples of collective pride.
Collective pride is real and there are a lot examples of it, but it works with small sized groups and when it does it feels great. Because of course we’re a social species, but our monkey brain is built around tribes and doesn’t conceive whole nations. And that’s why, for example, when I see people cheering for an athlete just because all their parents happened to fuck within the same imaginary lines, I find it really silly.
But I know that’s me, I have no problems with people who have a healthy national pride. I’m just saying I don’t and never had.
You’re comparing two things:
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Actually observed collective pride in nations
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Pride in hypothetical tribal bands that may have never existed
And saying the first is “silly” but the second is what we’re built for.
Understanding collective pride in its actual form is less silly than pushing into some dreamed-of past.
When you say “pride in hypotetycal tribal bands that may have never existed” what do you mean? You don’t believe that human beings evolved in tribes or don’t believe the members of these tribes felt a sense of common well-being that we call “pride” which have helped our evolution?
Various tribal structures have existed and still do (I’m a registered member of a clan, was clan secretary at one point) but Rousseau’s bands are a fantasy with no archæological basis.
I see to reason to speculate on history when we have collective pride visible in our daily experience. Especially not to say the former is valid and the really-experienced one isn’t.
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You can be proud of the good things your country has done or is doing. So long as you don’t forget the laundry list of dodgy shit it has also done.
I liken it to being proud of yourself as a person. You can take pride in yourself and your achievements but you should never forget all the times you fucked up.
I believe true patriotism isn’t just about loving your country, it’s about holding it accountable to its ideals. I love America deeply, and I honor those who sacrificed to uphold its founding principles. But I also see how words like ‘freedom’ and ‘patriotism’ have been misused, often twisted into tools for division or control. To me, being a patriot means seeking truth, learning from history, and speaking out when those values are betrayed. It’s about striving to make the country better, not pretending it’s perfect.
wanting your country to be better if the only valid patriotism.
thinking you’re better because some arbitrary borders might as well be a mental disease.
My take is that patriotism is a corruption of the feeling of belonging we get from community.
It’s not a ‘corruption’, it’s just tribalism in the modern day
For an example of the corruption of the feeling of community, that would be politicians milking their base for donations by stirring up community fear: i.e. MS13 is going to rape your pets, send me money to be tougher on immigration
But just patriotism is what happens when humans live in groups larger than a hundred or so
It’s also really dangerous in itself, even without intentional corruption and abuse
It’ll fuck your country up real bad.
It all depend on how you define patriotism. Honestly, I think Colin Kaepernick kneeling during the national anthem is the most patriotic act ever. He knew people would hate him for it, but he did it anyways because he took a hard look at his own country and decided we needed to do better.
Patriotism is being proud of being born and grown up in a certain random place.
This is what is left for those who never achieved anything worthy of being proud of on their own.
this thread is bringing all the Thatcherites out
Patriotism. It’s the food of the wise man but the liquor of the fool.
I was raised around a lot of “patriotism” (closet nationalism) and have had to adapt the feeling now that I understand better what America actually is and has been. I found that trying to abandon the feeling altogether was making me feel cynical and alone. The parts of America that I love in fact tend to exist despite our government and dominant culture, which steals and appropriates the things I love about us and turns them into the things people know about us and dislike for good reason. I love the source materials, not the end result. As a white person born into privilege on stolen land, my existence is not entirely apart from this, but all’s I can do with that is try to make something better of it.
There’s a salt-of-the-earth working-class segment of this country that’s getting screwed over, knows how and why they and others are getting screwed over, and has learned to survive together in spite of it. People that make families out of communities. Rail hoppers, union organizers, queer punks, the list goes on. That spirit is not unique to this country but there do exist uniquely American forms of it. I’m more proud of these people than words can express, and that’s about as close to patriotic as I can feel these days.
Maybe I just like seeing our shitty protestant labor worship turned to something more productive. Maybe I just spent too much time in the mountains to not fall in love with the land itself. Or maybe I just love banjos.
Dangerous.
Patriotism is the little sibling of nationalism, and the boundaries are fluid. I will never understand why people are proud of other people’s accomplishments and make them their own. Or is it because people were shat on somewhere else in the world than everyone else? Makes absolutely no sense.
