If you asked me like 4-8 years ago, I felt kind of neutral about things. Now I don’t feel an ounce bit patriotic or proud enough to even state that I’m an American.
Now, when I see an American flag around, I see it as a symbol of fascism, anti-intelluctialism, neo-nazism, and late-stage capitalism amongst other things. If there’s an American flag flying on a car, I can totally see that person possessing at least one of those qualities.
I suppose it’s good to be self aware and not blindly feel patriotic and ignoring that your country needs improvement.
I don’t know what I’m expecting in the comments here but just thought I would get this off my chest.
I kinda know what you mean… I used to not think anything weird about seeing an American flag, sometimes it even made me feel patriotic. Now when I see a car with an American flag sticker I assume the person driving probably has a loaded gun and is desperate to get into an argument about something
Exactly my point. It tends to be the case too.
Don’t forget who took that from you.
It was never a flag with lots of good behind it, it’s one of the least deserving of patriotism flags. And the fact that it is so heavily used, just like patriotism, lying about history in schools, the military shit is all extremely fucked up. It’s brainwashing on a disgusting level.
The greatest lie the Right ever told that the Left bought hook line and sinker was that they were the ones who represented America.
The thing is, while the US has it’s horrible history and present, the people who fought for the ideals we’re supposed to have are also just as much American as any conservative asshole. MLK Jr was American. Frederick Douglass was American. John Brown was American. Mister Rogers was American. Abolitionists. Suffragists. Union fighters. People fighting for fixing the problems, righting the wrongs, holding our country accountable for it’s own ideals, are just as much a part of that flag.
The assholes laid claim to that flag and the people who are aware of the problems, who have legitimate concerns with the bullshit this country has done and continues to do, accidentally let them.
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So then the question is, what should the flag represent, the people or the ideals? If it’s the ideals, then some real shitheads are trying to steal your flag.
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I agree with this with every piece of my heart. I’d like more than anything for American non-maga’s to take back the American flag (and the gadsden for that matter). Let them have their maga and thin blue line, but ceding the American flag to them is essentially admitting that you don’t want to be a part of this country, which only makes maga’s feel more comfortable about labeling you as an “other”. I know, I grew up in a conservative family, and still live in a conservative state. It’s a self-exacerbating problem.
I can sympathize with those that really are done with the country, but I’m not ready to give up yet. We can flip the script. Pride marches should be flooded with American flags. Civil rights too. Force conservatives to come to terms with the fact that they’re no more American than the trans-commie over there waving the big-ass American flag. If we’re so lucky to make it through this and come out the other side a better country, I wouldn’t necessarily be opposed to changing the flag. But right now I believe it makes strategic sense to claim the 50-stars. Fly your other flags with it if you don’t want to be confused for a conservative, then you’re essentially projecting “hey, I’m American too, dumbass!”.
TL;DR: the American left needs stop being so self-concious about what waving an American flag says about them and realize that a.) non-maga’s waving the American flag can be a powerful propaganda tool, and b.) they can take it back.
🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲 NAZI AMERICANS FUCK OFF 🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲
Patriotism leads to nationalism, xenophobia, and racism. Not always, of course, but often enough to make it a horrible thing. Our communities are only as good as we make them, and any notion that presupposes greatness is antithetical to continued improvement.
A German comedian put this quite well: Only in a patriotically heated hothouse can racism/nationalism thrive
The American flag has become more a symbol of nationalism to me than a symbol of patriotism. It represents everything I hate about my country, and none of the things I love.
You are not wrong. Seeing jingoism and corporatized patriotism for the sham that they are really opens your eyes to how much of it truly exists. A person who wants no politics in life is often fine with a national anthem, a gigantic flag stretched across a stadium, with jets flying over for a Cheez-It Citrus Bowl and has absolutely no idea that it is political propaganda for nationalism and perpetual war.
In my 50+years here, it has only gotten worse and worse. We’ve always stuck our military where it doesn’t belong, back to the beginning with genociding indigenous peoples here. Now we stick military bases all over the planet and strong arm every other nation into unbalanced alliance. We create conflict for oil and to line the pockets of defense contractors. We aid those currently committing genocide and protect the perpetrators from receiving international justice. Nationalism and fascism snap together like two magnets.
Every time I am told to stand for a national anthem at a professional for-profit sporting event, I think of these things and remain sitting.
Do you think it’s possible to live in harmony with the rest of the world? If the united states conceded its powerful position, who would take over as the new world power? (Probably China) Would you be better off? Would the world in general be better off with someone else in charge? Would you prefer to stand for the Chinese flag or the American flag? Or do you actually think we are ready for a world where there are no super powers?
That’s a lot of questions, many of which I don’t know. All I know is that it is possible for the US to close all the bases and live in harmony with other countries around the globe. It is, however, improbable due to immense wealth among industrial sectors in the United States who hold the actual cards. Their greed will inevitably lead to full scale war as they wither and cede power.
My point is that the united states is a stabilizing force, and in many cases someone else would step in if we left. So my question is, would they be more fair? Its not as simple as saying that the united states is the sole source of evil in the world.
I hate even dressing up on July 4th for fear of looking like a capitol raiding moron. It didn’t use to be like this, and frankly, it’s depressing as fuck. I used to be very proud of my nation, and the progress we’d made in my short lifespan. We legalized gay marriage, elected a black president, tried to get healthcare for all (didn’t work and we all know why), but I genuinely felt optimistic about our nation and the future. 4 years of Trump did a number on my sense of patriotism, and were only 1 months in to Trump 2.0 and he’s dealt a knockout blow to it. I genuinely cringe seeing any amount of national pride now.
Back in the day when my grandfather had a shack in Canada for the summers he would wear a Canada flag hat from time to time. People complimented him on it. This was in the 80s when pride in your country wasn’t associated with “nationalism” and sort of racial pride. Now-a-days even a Canadian flag holds weirdo connotations not even getting into the American flag…
Aw, I like the Canadian flag. I’m not Canadian, but I like Canada. Bunch of good people up there.
What I’m trying to say is…PLEASE LET ME IN!!! GET ME OUTTA THIS HELL HOLE AMERICA!!! I’m even in Cleveland! It wouldn’t even be that far away! Just I’ll borrow a jetski in the summer, and I’ll be over in like…20 minutes. I don’t know how long it takes to cross Lake Erie. I assume it’s short.
Here’s an alternative take to upset the boring consensus here.
Patriotic pride (not necessarily nationalism) is the inevitable product of social cohesion. A society which is cohesive is one where people look at strangers and see them as members of their tribe - essentially, as extended family. It’s a society where citizens are therefore willing to pay high taxes to fund those strangers’ welfare benefits, for example. No welfare state has ever arisen in a country without this essential quality. Almost by definition, social cohesion is closely correlated with patriotism. In the world’s most redistributive countries - I’m talking about Scandinavia, of course - you will see more national flags than you might think given their “leftist” reputation. In Sweden, ordinary houses sometime have flagpoles in the garden, I’ve seen them. None of this is coincidental.
Patriotism can be a dangerous slippery slope, yes. But it’s also what empowers strong states and collective action. Nobody wants a patriotism-free world more than the billionaires that everyone hates here. Be careful what you wish for.
In elementary school, I was all about patriotism. The flag was cool. we (country) were the bad-ass owners of our own fate and we’re cool. We are the melting pot, by the people for the people.
Up through Desert Shield, I was still like yay, America.
W lost his luster, I got old enough to feel the embarrassment of broccoli and NUCULER. I wasn’t rah rah anymore, but those that are, live and let live right?
Dixie flag wavers were racists, that was easy, but the 1776 flag, will maybe they’re historians.
I was mostly over our the right’s shit by Clinton. But then Clinton had some of his own disturbing shit.
When Trump hit the first time, I saw, 30-40% of the population throwing flags up and starting fascist fights. Complete and Immediate disillusion.
At his point, someone flying the US flag is a BIG red flag. The Dixie flag is stupid racists, The 1776 flag is libertarians who fall into camps between uninformed and uninformed racists pop it up there with the don’t tread on me bullshit.
At this point, if you’re not retired military from a better time, there’s very little you can do to show me you can fly an American flag and not be a horrible person.
Do USian school children still talk to that bit of fabric every morning - or is that a myth? From an outsider’s perspective I always put the US just below, uh, post-Weimar republic Germany in the excessive flag club chart placings. Always seemed excessively jingoistic.
Best of luck with your country…
Yes it still goes on. I live in a very liberal city with a ton of diversity bordering Chicago and our schools still do it here. However, they don’t care if you participate or not - that is your personal choice.
I have been substitute teaching and I’ve noticed that not many kids recite it. They just listen to it being recited over the morning announcements.
I like the way your school works where you can chant along if you want - I remember having to lip-sync the “Lord’s prayer” (daily bread speech) as a kid so as not to get a whooping from a zealot in the staff room. Crazy times.
Best of luck to you, your kids and your city - you’re literally educating the generation that might have to dig your whole country out from the nightmare it appears to be building. Look after yourselves…
Thank you! I think it’s a nice compromise. Those that want to say it can and others can feel and be who they want. I grew up saying it, but these days I do think it’s weird to pledge allegiance to a flag or that we have to constantly tout how we’re the best country (we’re not). With age comes wisdom and experience.
Where I live it’s hard to see someone flying an American flag and not immediately assume they’re a bigot.
Magats did to the American flag what they think gay people did to the rainbow.
No, you’ve started to see things more clearly.
No, you’re right to feel that way. While most Americans aren’t terrible people, enough of us are that we allowed fascism to take over and we will have to carry that shame with us for the rest of our lives. It Happened Here.
No, you’re right to feel that way.
Agree.
While most Americans aren’t terrible people,
Hard disagree.
enough of us are that we allowed fascism to take over and we will have to carry that shame with us for the rest of our lives. It Happened Here.
Well…yeah. That’s a symptom of the problem which is why I had to hard disagree with you.
Not from the US but when I see my country’s flag I don’t really feel anything. In theory I’ve got two flags, both the Scottish one and the Union Jack but they both elicit the same lack of reaction. Countries are just social and geographical facts. Getting angry or elated at the sight of a flag is a bit like having an emotional reaction to the moon; I suppose it’s possible in some circumstances but most of the time it’s just there and you shrug.
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