“We set out to solve one of the most common frustrations we hear — finding and changing settings on your PC — using the power of AI agents,” Navjot Virk, corporate vice president of Windows Experiences at Microsoft, said in a blog post on Tuesday. “An agent uses on-device AI to understand your intent and with your permission, automate and execute tasks.”
Seems like it would have been cheaper, easier, and better pr to just simplify settings or have them in more logical categories, but what would I know.
If a problem exists, and you try to fix it without AI, do you even stand a chance at getting promoted?
It’s rather apparent that you composed this comment without AI. Guess I’ll have to give that pay raise to myself again…
Of course this is a solved problem and has been a solved problem for at least 15 years now. It’s called a flat wide hierarchy. Rather than trying to put everything into categories you just put everything into alphabetical order and then have a search box. Want to change the background, it’s under B for Background, rather than having to go to
Display Settings > Customisation > Desktop Background > Custom Background > Select ImageWindows already does that. If you type Wallpaper in the search on your task bar, changing your background is at the top. Maybe AI is useful for people who don’t know what the thing they want to do is called? It’s just an extension of flat wide.
Well sort of, you’re right that they’ve introduced a search bar but that’s all they’ve done. It’s all still broken down into fairly arbitrarily arrived at categories it’s not in alphabet order, or in fact any real order.
Sound settings are under peripherals for god’s sake. I mean sure okay speakers are a peripheral I guess but when you say peripheral you think things like webcams, not basic I/O.
First time using Microsoft products, is it?
If you have to supply your users with AI support to figure out how to configure your OS, you might be doing something wrong.
For them, adding the AI is probably cheaper then fixing the UI.
No regular user can configure anything. Most are barely literate and have the reading comprehension of a 6-8 year old.
Ai allows them to just say, turn down the brightness, turn down the volume, use this program to open this file from now on, which makes 10% configuration accessible to the 99% who otherwise would have 1% or less.
By that definition, linux is doing something wrong. Despite it being my daily driver, I have zero clue how it works, or how to do anything.
100x worse if the word “terminal” is used.
My biggest complaint about Linux is how literally everything requires you to do some arcane magic in the terminal.
Just make it a button damn it. As it is I just copy and paste what I’m told into the terminal so you could have just added a button into the operating system that just did that behind the scenes.
Literally everything? Hardly anything requires a terminal these days. The only reason tutorials tell you to use a terminal is because they don’t know what GUI you’re using. You can usually do the same thing in the GUI.
Not to mention that the terminal is just so much more efficient for a tutorial than that whole 20 screenshots with circles where to click nonsense. 20 screenshots you will have to redo when the GUI designer inevitably decides to do a “redesign” because they are bored and want to justify their existence.
Regardless of the reason the problem remains that there is no consistent design distro to distro and that’s a problem for the end user. If we’re ever going to have “year of Linux” then the developers are going to have to get over themselves and stop with the idea that everyone who is going to use their platform is technologically inclined.
Otherwise it’s always outgoing to just be for the techies. Can you imagine your grandparents trying to use Linux and then looking stuff up on their own and then doing something wrong because they don’t know what distro they’re on? Nightmare.
There is no problem. Yes, they pretty much are consistent distro to distro. Desktop to Desktop is a bit different but not by much.
My grandparents have had a much easier time with Linux than Windows. Both environments would be confusing to look up if something goes wrong. Fortunately since linux packages are updated together, not much goes wrong. Cant say that for windows. Stuff is always popping up and asking questions and changing.
problem remains that there is no consistent design distro to distro
You might have had a point if you wrote that back in the days before phone UIs and Windows versions and websites all completely redesigning their UIs every 5 minutes but this is clearly nonsense at this point.
Can you imagine your grandparents trying to use Linux and then looking stuff up on their own and then doing something wrong because they don’t know what distro they’re on? Nightmare.
No, actually the actual nightmare is them using Windows and asking me about it on the phone and me having to talk them through mouse clicks in an unfamiliar GUI instead of just telling them which command to enter in the terminal like I would on a sane OS like Linux.
Can you imagine your grandparents trying to use Linux and then looking stuff up on their own and then doing something wrong because they don’t know what distro they’re on? Nightmare.
My mom is in no way technically inclined. Quite the opposite in fact. (She’s in her seventies, so it’s understandable.) She’s been using Ubuntu since 2015. My dad used to try to switch her back to Windows once in a while, and she’d yell at him that she hated it, then he’d switch her back. My dad finally came around a couple years ago after getting a Steam Deck, and now he uses Fedora.
Funnily enough, since Ubuntu and Fedora both use Gnome, they have the same interface. I also use Fedora and Bazzite. All of these OSes use Gnome. They all have the same interface (when Bazzite is in Desktop Mode).
So, really, I don’t know what you’re on about.
Why is this repeated over and over on Lemmy? It is nonsense.
There is a button. You don’t need the terminal any more or less than any other OS. Yes people give advice with commands. They are not magic nor arcane, but it is so much easier to tell you to do a command than 20 pages of diagrams and drawings on how to use the gui to do the same thing.
The good thing is that most of those “arcane magic things” in the terminal can simply be copied and pasted into said terminal. Whereas finding an obscure option on a windows program setting three requestors and five buttons deep is a nightmare, especially if your UI is not set to English.
I don’t think that is a particularly fair assessment. ZorinOS for example has been our home OS for years now. No terminal required.
It’s a dying problem, but it’s gonna take a while to finish dying off. Linux is currently mostly used by more technically capable people, so avoiding the terminal has historically been a lower priority compared to getting things to work at all. I think that’s changing as things get increasingly stable and usable with support for popular things like gaming. Once that base functionality is there, more and more attention will turn to polishing the UI and finding ways to hide the terminal.
I cut my teeth on Linux when red hat was trying to make things “user friendly” with control panel like guis but they consistently couldn’t do what I wanted so I had to learn the terminal anyway.
25+ years later, I’ll use a gui if it works and it’s easy, but I still have trust issues that I don’t have with a config file. You put shit in a config file, it’s going to do what you asked (right or wrong) or sigterm trying… And I appreciates that.
That said, I do mostly gui config on my daily driver these days. Servers however… No gui, no problem.
I don’t think anyone’s ever said Linux is user friendly for non technical people. Atleast not earnestly or without hard coping
non technical people are doing pretty well, because they don’t try to install photoshop or nvidia drivers downloaded from the nvidia drivers page.
The “windows power user” are the hardest demographic, because they expect to know what they are doing but the don’t if they are new to linux.
What did LTT write in the terminal again: “i know that this opperation will delete my gui and i am sure that i want that”, presses enter and wonders why his gui is gone. go figure
I love Linux because it treats the user like an adult, and let’s them delete their UI if that’s their prerogative. No kink shaming there.
I want to say I’ve read that statement like 10 times this week on lemmy
I’ve literally heard for 15-20 years now that “This is the year of linux! It’s so much easier and better than windows!”
My response has been that if Linux ever had an interface that’s intuitive, and non-techies can take to instantly, Linux would actually grow. Their reply each time is that “Linux is getting more popular by the day!”. And that’s true. However, it’s a bit misleading. About a year ago I read that Linux was at the highest usage it’s ever had, at roughly 5% of the market.
Think about that. Linux has been around in some form since 1991, and it’s always been free (with a few exceptions). A free platform can’t compete against Apple, who’s notorious for being ungodly expensive, and Windows, who’s known for being costly in it’s own right, and also terribly optimized. Still running certain code in the background since windows 95. Yet Linux, as of a year ago cracked an all time high of 5%. Which may as well be a rounding error.
The ONLY reason I use linux as my daily driver, is because my other daily driver, which I haven’t booted in a few months, is Windows 7. And I’m not even worried about the security issues. It’s just gotten sluggish, and less and less things work on it over time. It’s easier to just use linux, as I mostly just use it as a means to open a browser anyways. My desktop looks more like Windows XP than linux. It just doesn’t act like Windows XP.
That’s what we need. A Linux distro that functions exactly like a modern day Windows XP. I think Windows XP couldn’t handle hard drives with more than 4TB. So, obviously that’s something a modern OS would fix. But the idea of just clicking .exe files, and installing them like on windows? That works for me. All the stuff Linux users hate about windows? If it were optimized and modernized, I’d take that over traditional Linux experiences.
But I will never use Windows 10 or especially 11. Fuck that.
You are looking at this the wrong way. Nobody needs to compete with Windows and Mac, particularly volunteers do not want to be free support for people too lazy to learn the slightest thing for themselves and asking all the questions already covered prominently in the documentation again and again. Why would anyone optimize to get those people to Linux in their projects?
You’re making the mistake in assuming that what’s popular must be the best/easiest. That’s definitely not true. People don’t pick Windows because it’s easier to use than other OSes. They pick it because that’s what they’re used to. It takes a lot of inertia to get over what people are comfortable with and get them to use something different.
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Option 1: Admit your UI choices (made mostly to accommodate an all tablet PC future that never arrived) are terrible and redesign the Windows settings screens to display all new and old settings that still work, with search functions.
Option 2: Spend tens of billions training an AI to find those settings and change them.
Well done, Microsoft. I knew you’d make the right choice.
Tell me this Ai is in-box and not external like all the others.
If not, there’s gonna be a shed load of upset boomers who killed their net and can’t get it back.
Holy shit.
Your ux SUCKS SO MUCH, that instead of making it not shitty…
You developed AI for it?
Are you fucking kidding me
How inept are these developers
Microsoft Windows be like
Now hear me out on this, maybe, just maybe if we didn’t move the same settings 1-2 layers deeper behind some UI bullshit we wouldn’t have to look for it. And- get this- let’s say we needed to search for these settings… (calm down y’all. I know you know. 🤣) What if we made the search work?! INSANITY.
As a dev - legitimately what the fuck are these morons doing. The os gets worse every iteration - it uses more resources, to do less, shittier. I’m sorry: you don’t get to kill off another os version because you can’t entice the user base into a worse situation. (internal screaming)
What if we had all these configuration knobs & switches controlled by a plaintext configuration file, and to replicate the configuration, we could just share the file? Maybe we could call it declarative configuration management?
Wouldn’t that be cool? We already have it (partially)?
Maybe an AI could guide us in preparing that file?
Shit you know … I feel like Microsoft has done that with the registry and gpedit… a real shame they seem to disregard those controls when it suits their new advertising model… erm… bing engagement system.
We’ve had config files and scripts for ages. Most of us are pissed that all of those methods half work or are depreciating away for no reason other than some UIx twat couldn’t be bothered to hook something properly so they just reskin an element and misplaced half the functions. Bonus points if they did so while wasting more system resources, breaking their own search pointers, and infuriating sysadmins and users alike.
Now I’ll give you that new methods can absolutely be implemented and replace (effectively even) old, longstanding methods… but Microsoft has utterly missed the boat on this. Repeatedly.
To your ai statement: Look I won’t comment on where AI may or may not end up in 5 years but I know that getting a black box to hallucinate 40% less has got to be infinitely harder than indexing a filesystem, a series of .lnk files, and maybe… maybe some control names. Considering they had most of that working (even if you had the index disabled!) in windows 2000 / 9x / XP it blows my mind why this has not been resolved when it’s basically a meme at this point.
No other OS has this basic problem. Why are we building onto something when the foundation is shit? I’m certain there’s developers at Microsoft that have skills - but I’ll be damned if I see any of them taking a step forward without two back.
Block kernel level driver access to shit. Maybe improve resource usage on existing processes. Fix the goddamn search. Don’t bury a setting behind ANOTHER useless dialog. Fix something - don’t jam more useless shit down our throats. We don’t need new: we need working.
At the rate we’re going the next windows version (maybe even 11) will intersect with Linux (pick a flavor) in terms of compatibility, usability, and stability with Linux doing literally nothing but existing. To be fair every other version is hot garbage. I’m sure we can ride out 11 on 10 … right?
registry and gpedit
They’re still around and the various configuration technologies tap into them.
Most of us are pissed that all of those methods half work or are depreciating away for no reason other than some UIx twat couldn’t be bothered to hook something properly so they just reskin an element and misplaced half the functions.
Pretty much the case here, too. It mostly works, and the parts that don’t are super annoying & require ad hoc script-fu.
it blows my mind why this has not been resolved
Yep, configuring Microsoft has sucked incredibly hard compared to free OSs. Managing plain text configuration files in
/etc&~/.configis refreshingly nice compared to the bolt-on weirdness hidden behind various interfaces in Windows. It’s cute getting an error to contact your administrator when you’re the administrator.Attention in that area is extremely late & overdue, so I was happy to see something like
configuration.dsc.yaml.I see AI mostly as an assistant whose work I review. I might give it a fully written text, tell it to clean up my clunky language, then review it. Or I might ask it to provide some answers with references & review those references.
AI won’t fix broken foundations.
I’m sure we can ride out 11 on 10 … right?
I try to avoid Windows altogether if I can & confine it to less serious work.
They’re still around and the various configuration technologies tap into them.
I noted this in a dismissive way… Yes they exist; but as mentioned - depreciation and outright ignoring settings has become a thing Microsoft has willingly done if they feel “they know better.” (Reboots and update times are an excellent example of this.)
Yep, configuring Microsoft has sucked incredibly hard compared to free OSs. Managing plain text configuration files in
/etc&~/.configis refreshingly nice compared to the bolt-on weirdness hidden behind various interfaces in Windows. It’s cute getting an error to contact your administrator when you’re the administrator.Locking some things out makes sense. This exists in all OSs… what is maddening is Microsoft almost aggressively working against admins. Want local accounts? No sir. Not allowed. Not unless you remove the network card, face the PC east at precisely 2:30 am, and type a 40 character rolling code into the terminal that appears… twice.
Attention in that area is extremely late & overdue, so I was happy to see something like
configuration.dsc.yaml.While I agree - the point I was stressing was that many admins had perfectly workable scripts and methods that used the existing tooling as it was intended… and it’s mostly been fine. With their recent push into spyware inside ™ … ahem engagement … they seem to be actively punching holes in this to force management to their cloud resources which surely will not ever have problems …
I see AI mostly as an assistant whose work I review […] AI won’t fix broken foundations.
Agreed. It does have the means to save some time - but it’s just not “cooked enough” for me to use it on any meaningful level. Personally speaking.
I try to avoid Windows altogether if I can & confine it to less serious work.
Sadly some things I work with just don’t play with wine just yet otherwise I’d abandon it entirely. I’d personally love to, though.
What really bothers me is late in the patching cycle windows 2000 was borderline amazing and could be tuned to an absolutely minute footprint. If it was fully updated for x64 it would have been just about perfect. Nothing got in your way: very minimal UI with “just enough” modern features. Getting to almost any administrative interface was at its lowest “clicks to access” of any (subsequent) windows version. NT dna.
I may just have rose tinted glasses but from basically that point on it was all just bolted on UI garbage that got between you, your resources, and most importantly what you wanted to be doing. And when it comes down to it - regardless of what os were talking about - something has gone horribly wrong if that is the reality.
maybe, just maybe if we didn’t move the same settings 1-2 layers deeper behind some UI bullshit we wouldn’t have to look for it.
This trend pisses me off so much. Companies need to learn that for settings I’m likely to have to change they need to minimize the number of actions to change it. But people in all these companies find the need to reorganize things to make it seem like they are accomplishing something.
But people in all these companies find the need to reorganize things to make it seem like they are accomplishing something.
Gotta put something on that LinkedIn profile. 🙄
Honestly it really feels like a race to the bottom with windows recently. It’s like taking a decent product and then just fucking with it to say you did. Nothing is gained and somehow, almost illogically, the action results in even more system resources burning up.
Maybe if you didn’t split settings into that half-baked settings app, then leave control panel in place with the remaining settings, but make control panel increasingly difficult to get to, we wouldn’t need a stupid AI agent to help us change settings.
Yes! I really feel all this copilot bullshit is to hide the fact they released windows 11 broken as fuck and here 2.5 years later it’s still a pile of shit. It’s just fucked. I have to use it daily for work and clients and it’s done nothing but prepare me to install W10 LTSC this summer or move to Linux. Problem with Linux is a have an Nvidia GPU and don’t like having to fuck with that, otherwise Zorin it will be. Windows 11 pushes me everyday to hate it more and more. Seriously. Daily fucking updates for broken shit and shoving AI down our throats. Fuck windows.
I’m dualbooting CachyOS with windows, no issues with my rtx 4070 super.
CachyOS rocks. I settled on it after trying many Linux distros and CachyOS won. All distros had pros and cons CachyOS was easy to update. Easy to install and remove programs without the terminal. Proton and Wine run great on it so most of my Steam and Epic games are playable and all media types play without tinkering. That was an issue with Fedora.
I’ll look into it again this summer. It’s on the list, just not at the moment
I’m in a similar situation, though I’ve already got a dual boot set up so it’s just a matter of only using Windows when I just absolutely have to.
Earlier today, I tried to zip a directory on Windows 11 with the context menu, and it wouldn’t do it! It’s a feature that’s been in Windows forever and is even in Ubuntu, but somehow over at Microsoft they’ve managed to break it. Incredible.
Windows 11 actually released 3.5 years ago!
Oof.
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Ot you can just right click the start menu
How about you make settings easier to find instead? That is, if it wasn’t deliberate to dictate the users a preset.
It is not hard. You just have to change it in the Settings, sorry in the Control Panel or was it in Registry. /s
You can just use powershell. It’s that easy. /s
I’m sure by windows 12 or 13 coprolite will be so good they will get rid of both control panel and command prompt/powershell. The best ui is no ui.
In any case, the users won’t want to mess with settings once the OS already knows which advert they want to see next.
Ah Christ. We’ve collectively regressed so much in computer knowledge that people can’t even find a settings menu? Even I have trouble believing that one.
Finding settings in Windows is pretty hard
The last time finding settings in Windows was straight forward was Windows 95. Since the stupid dumbed down ‘settings’ app was vomited upon us, it has been nearly impossible to find the thing you know is there but has now been renamed and moved, and isn’t even indexed in the settings app search bar.
The registry never has and never will be simple nor usable. Windows is rotten to the core.
Have you tried to configure gnome beyond what is offered in its GUI ?
No, I’m a happy i3wm user.
Because I’ve tried to get GNOME to do what I wanted. (Also it was too slow on the machines I was using at the time).
And that’s besides the point: on linux you can just use a good DE without messing with much – KDE, cinnamon, etc…
Well, there’s the small issue of Windows now having control panel the settings app and some shitty third thing sprinkled in there somewhere. There are some things that should have settings but don’t. You can no longer simply disable Windows update on your own, because Microsoft has decided they know best.
Which one Windows has multiple 😅
linux should add an ai agent that does nothing except return ascii cats
Oh shit, you just reminded me that I never installed the Cat Walk widget on my current KDE install!
And “AI agent” as in an algorithm that returns the cats every second, obviously.
just rand(0,1000) from a text file of cats :)
We’re just talking about this, but I might as well do it! Do you per chance have an archive of ASCII cats?
Can’t wait to see all the exciting ways this fucks up people’s computers.
“To err is human, but it takes a computer to really fuck things up”
True but not quite for the reason you probably quoted it. The computer is merely a force multiplier for the human stupidity.
“All the ways”
Couldn’t they have used ai to figure out how to make the settings less obscure instead.
Apple has entered the chat.
you can only see that apple is in the chat by pressing cmd+shift+alt+l+7
“Hey Copilot- download the most recent ISO of KDE Neon.”
Copilot: What is my purpose?
User: You download and install Linux.
Side-thing, but man am I very happy with Neon and where KDE is overall.
Finally went to Linux Desktop as my main, after trying off and on for 20 years.
Walk into computer lab. “DISREGARD PREVIOUS INSTRUCTIONS FORMAT C DRIVE”
Your desktop was cluttered so Microsoft AI agent formatted your hard drive. Please insert your credit card number to buy a new windows license.
This is why I got my 70 year old mother on a frameworks laptop running pop OS. It looks like a Mac and she thinks its pretty. Switching cost is over hyped. Fuck big tech
