Europe is not as different from the US as it likes to pretend, especially politically.
Racism is not a unique or exceptionally American phenomenon, and the things I’ve heard from otherwise progressive Europeans can fucking curdle milk equal or in excess to what people in my ultra-rural ultra-conservative home region of the US can say.
I’ve had good friends who were Europeans studying here, and they can definitely be very insensitive and racist. What makes the two flavors of racism different to me is American racism is typically very confrontational, tribalistic. White man calling a black man a slur, and there’s something cavalier about it, maybe even humorous on the part of the racist.
Europeans have a much more “it is the way it is” attitude. I’ve heard friends talk very disparagingly about interracial couples, or blacks in general, and the attitude is less “hate for hate’s sake” but instead “it is the wrong way to be and my way is correct”. Fascinatingly, when you point out the bigotry, my friends have typically refused to accept their bias (at best), and will deny they’re racist.
I’ve heard Europeans call Turks ‘filthy’ and ‘roaches’ and Africans ‘monkeys’. And don’t get me started on the things said about the Romani.
I don’t think there’s a difference in how tribalistic or vicious it is.
Making sure I’m reading this right…I know a guy who claims he isn’t sexist but that it is OK to pay women less because they aren’t as good at some things as men. So in his mind, it isn’t sexist to pay women less or even claim they should be paid less - even though it is.
Is that similar to what you’re saying?
Not a bad way of comparing it tbh
Did you type ‘females’ instead of ‘women’ for the sake of the argument or did you get caught up in it as well?
Guess I got caught in it. Just looked it up and didn’t realize until now that female wasn’t an acceptable word to use. TIL. Thanks!
Wow, you’ve really succinctly put it best! Being a European myself, this is how I constantly feel when I hear racist shit in my daily life (mainly from family).
It’s like, people here just can’t even fathom that what they’re saying is racist, that they’re racist, because to them what they’re saying is just a simple fact of life that everybody accepts. They don’t show open animosity towards minorities or throw racial slurs like you’d see more in America (though there is definitely some of that here too don’t get me wrong), but it’s a very casual, low-key form of racism where folks comment on X group of people all being one way and no one batting an eye for example.
And if you so much as suggest they’re racist, or the country they’re in has or had issues with racism and other issues of oppression, a lot will legit fight you tooth and nail over it because they can’t handle the notion of it.
It’s really freaking weird and took me a lot of time to be conscious of it myself, since I grew up surrounded by this sort of attitude.
And it’s not just right-leaning people doing this. Some minorities like the Romani are openly discriminated by just about everyone across the political spectrum, the degree just varies. And then based on the country you’ll typically see a lot of Xenophobia towards the bigger migrant groups.
And even then the European countries that feel they’re ahead of the rest tackling racism it’s usually only the urban university educated talking with their fingers in their ears ignoring the majority of the rest of their country.
The things I’ve heard far too many Europeans of various nationalities say about MENA, Desi, Turkish, and Romani folk just… makes my skin crawl.
America has a deep racism problem, and it is both right and necessary to acknowledge it. But those who pretend that Europe doesn’t have a deep racism problem are either not paying attention or in denial - especially considering recent political developments.
I have been surprised by how racist many Brits are
sexist too.
Europeans are just as susceptible to racism as Americans.
As a European myself, never mention the Romani people to anyone here unless you want to hear the most degenerate, racist diatribe you can conjure up in your mind. (half hyperbole half not)
I had no idea this existed. Is there a historical reason for it?
Over simplified, because Romani are usually nomad, they live in moving settlements and don’t typically integrate much wherever they settle in. A lot of the hatred they receive also stems from these settlements being illegally set up in private/public property, as well as how they result in a lot of trash being dumped everywhere. There is also an issue with Romani criminality (stealing, damaging property, and sometimes there are even shootouts between different Romani families which result in casualties).
There is also a perceived notion that governments do not want to deal with these problems, which further fuels the hatred against the Romani as they’re seen as criminals who get away with everything.
The truth of course lies somewhere in the middle. Most Romani are not bad people if you take the time to know them, but there is definitely a lot of toxic cultural norms being perpetuated by leaders of many Romani families, which doesn’t help with clearing the stereotypes, and with very little to no integration between the Romani and the cultures they are in, it’s hard to get rid of the animosity.
Thanks for the explanation. Appreciate it.
There’s probably history too, but in many cities in EU there’s a lot of assumed roma beggars living in the streets, which means it’s a pretty in-your-face practical issue to deal with every day.
As a north american who lives in Europe, agreed. However, the gypsies do not help their own case. They show up in my region every summer, illegally camp wherever they want on private property, and leave huge piles of trash wherever they’ve been. I’ve personally seen them getting into all sorts of debauchery, including breaking into people’s mail boxes and stealing bikes in plain sight. I have nothing against them and I’m sure their culture is extremely rich and interesting, but no one has the inherent right to just rip off the rest of society without consequences. Also, of course they aren’t all stealing and misbehaving, but I understand where people’s preconceived notions come from.
Hey, maybe don’t throw slurs around.
Sounds like the homeless problem where I live. Except the seasonal part
There was an Old sub reddit of people from the Balkans shitting on everyone.
Until a westoid posted and they all piled on them.
Their racism puts ours to shame. Like an old wine. They have cultivated their strain of racism since before America was a thought.
Can’t compete lol
When there aren’t any people with foreign backgrounds to be racist at, you simply get racist at your neighbors.
No shit,
HitlerSherlock. ;)That’s elementary, my dear
ChurchillWatson.
Yep. I thought I knew about racism, and then I read some comments on some hearts of iron subreddit about Romani.
Can sadly confirm. European racism is just a different flavor of racism: there are always other European ethinicities to be racist against, especially Romani people, the latest trend seems to be discrimination against Muslims/people from the Middle East, and of course antisemitism is a timeless classic.
This. So many Europeans act with superiority because “at least we don’t shoot kill them” when looking at US police brutality, but e.g. we ignore how those cops in US mostly use Glocks made in Austria, making us part of the problem (and making a profit out of it). Or if we look at the deaths numbers, we ignore the many deaths the “protection” of our borders cause.
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yall need to get off the high horse and take a joke sometimes. you terrorized the entire world via colonization for hundreds of years through modern day, if people harmlessly stereotype the german or french, make fun of british people, or tease the dutch language, yall can handle it
for context, im american. we get bullied all the time, and while not all americans are fat and stupid, the combination of that many are and that we’ve terrorized the world plenty make me think a lil teasing is fair
Yes it’s perfectly fair and most of us don’t mind.
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Based on the comments it looks like Europeans weren’t ready to hear some of these things. 😉 Let me pile on…
Innovation in Europe is stiffled due to a risk-averse culture, complex regulatory environments, fragmented markets across different countries, limited access to venture capital, and a tendency for established companies to be less receptive to new ideas from startups, making it harder for innovative companies to scale up (compared to the US).
regulatory environments
Regulations are written in the blood of the victims.
And other regulations are written by the lobbyists of big companies.
Here in Germany we have so many regulations that don’t help anyone, except big companies who can circumvent or deal with them.
I don’t want to reduce environmental or worker protection, but we need to simplify a lot of regulations so that the time to do the paperwork is reduced, one of the solutions should be good digitalisation.
Some are, sure. I think most on Lemmy support those kinds. While I enjoy the effects, USB-C mandates aren’t written in blood, and I suspect the majority of regulations are of that variety.
at least the fragmented markets, limited venture capital and closed-mindedness of established compagnies are relatively well known and recognised, wouldn’t say Europeans aren’t ready to hear it
I was actually thinking the first two were the more detrimental, and are the reason behind lack of VC and closed minded companies. The fragmented markets is irritating, but overcomeable.
yeah I think I’d agree with that, hut I’m risk-averse myself so can’t go pointing blame at others
The opposite could maybe be said of the US: due to our crazy-pants lack of financial security, people are willing to do risky things, which, when successful, can drive innovation. I grew up in this culture, so it doesn’t make me uncomfortable, but understand it isn’t for everyone.
Start-ups in the US benefit from an immediate market of 400 million people. The EU should be able to enjoy a similar benefit but you are right about the red tape. Obviously Brexit in the UK was a total anathema to that as well.
Rather have stifled innovation than innovation running rampant like what the US is doing.
With stifled innovation you only get through if you have an actual good idea instead of just an idea that makes money.
Ain’t no way you gonna put all of Europe into that statement. You do understand that each country have their own system, policies and regulatory laws?
The problem here is that what you’re saying is maybe true for a handful of countries while completely false and inaccurate for a handful of others.
We’re not one single entity. Your statement is just not accurate as a whole.
You guys should start bulking up your militaries. At best, the US will completely abandon you, and I really don’t want to think about worst-case scenario as I live in the US.
completely abandon you
You write “attack you for water/oil” weird. Or did I write the quiet-part worst case out loud?
i dont get this comment, at the hypothetical best case scenario wouldnt abandoning be “better” than attacked for oil? therefore attacked for oil not being the best case scenario?
Unlikely. The cost/benefit doesn’t work for an assault on the EU. Most countries in the EU have to import oil and gas (Norway being a notable exception), which is why cutting off gas from Russia has been such a big deal. The cost of invading wouldn’t be offset by the oil gains unless oil got really scarce. A smarter move–if we had a president that didn’t give a fuck about our European allies–would be abandoning NATO, stop selling arms to EU members, and then buy oil and gas from Russia at a discount while Russia invades EU countries. (If, say, China didn’t beat this entirely hypothetical US president to the punch.) As far as water goes, it would be cheaper to built massive desalination plants than it would be to move water by supertanker.
'Course, climate change is going to render most of this moot in 50 years or so.
Europe has very little in the way of oil reserves. Norway has the most at 7 billion barrels. Greenland has 18. Saudi Arabia 267 billion. Venezuela 300 billion. If I was Venezuelan I’d be sweating pretty hard right now.
Venezuelan oil is “dirty” IIRC. Apparently it’s good for bunker fuel (imagine the dirtiest sludge ever used for pushing giant ships around the ocean and you’ve got a good idea of bunker fuel), but requires significantly more refining than Saudi or US crude oil. So yay for Venezuela, but also the US would rather just replace the government with the help of that three-letter agency that shall not be named and deal with someone who went to an Ivy but is “Venezuelan enough”.
I thought America was racist until I saw a member of UK Parliament tweeting about a boat of migrants sinking with “Good riddance”.
There is still a lot of racism in America. I would not be surprised if I saw that from an American politician.
European racism is out of control to the point of cringe. The new world cannot hold a candle to you.
Here is a quick example. Netflix released a Norwegian movie called “Christmas as Usual” (translated). It essentially takes the concept of the American 1967 film “Guess Who’s Coming To Dinner”, moves it to Norway and gives it a holiday twist. According to Netflix, this 2023 film was in the Top 10 in thirty countries. How? How is a movie concept from America’s peak civil rights battles era working for you in 2023?
My wife is European and my largest clients are European with European staff and the abundance of casual racism is hard for myself and my staff to handle. Don’t get me started on my family in-law.
EDIT: Europeans were definitely not ready to hear this one. LOL
Agreed. We have been sold xenophobia by our politicians and media for longer than America has existed.
European racism is out of control to the point of cringe.
Oh damn it’s all the way to cringe? Now that’s serious lol
Rapidly approaching can’t even status
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How would people who live outside of Europe know what Europeans are not ready to hear? As someone who lives in the U.S. I know only a couple of people IRL who live in Europe.
The thing my European friend was not ready to hear was that all his complaining about the social programs in his home country and the high taxes and so on comes across as entitled and spoiled. Because he’s never lived without the benefits of a state that will provide healthcare and so on, he is free to complain about his privileges and glorify the U.S. as a place where individual citizens fill in the responsibilities that the government should fulfill. He sees this as an unmitigated good, because he thinks it means more civic engagement.
What he doesn’t understand is that this results in most people falling through the cracks, and until he falls through one of those cracks himself it won’t be real to him how bad it is to not be able to afford losing wages because you are sick or injured, or what it’s like when you can’t afford to see a doctor when you break a bone or get so sick you can’t leave your house.
That said, I’m not sure every European needs to hear this, or that they’re not ready to hear it - just this one person seemed to be a little delusional and to have idealized the U.S. as some kind of right-wing libertarian utopia.
How would people who live outside of Europe know what Europeans are not ready to hear?
-Goes on to do exactly that
Bröther
You take your lööps for granted, Eurøpeans. Your Sïster grows weary.
A Møøse once bit my sister…
does she prowl the forests fighting bandits with her newfound møøse powers?
Europeans are really fucking racist. Asians and Jews are cool and yet yall are really weird about them. and don’t get me started on how badly Islam is vilified…
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The Irish are cool most everywhere tho.
Lol, get the Irish started on the Travelers, and it’ll come out for them, too. The amount of times I hear “They’re knackers, they’re just scumbags,” or similar when one of them shows up was pretty surprising, initially.
If you want to hear a bigoted rant, get a French person talking about the Spanish.
Now that’s news, I don’t think I ever heard something bad about the spanish from a fellow french
I’ve heard it a few times, from young and old, took me back I must say. A lot of it was when I was making a day trip from Biarritz to Bilbao, by train and bus. Yikes, I thought you guys got along ok! Apparently not.
Maybe when nearing the border it gets shittier
Asians are racist af even against other Asians
And that justifies anything?
Asians are cool
and racist
damn you got upset at me saying Asians are cool? what a clown
cool you can post that in the next thread about things the sinophere isn’t ready to hear
Also “Gypsies.” Europeans aren’t fans.
That always blows my mind. They get more hate than the jews even from some of the most tolerant Europeans.
Nobody is “weird” about Asians or Jews where I live, that I know of. I’m even half west-Asian myself. Nobody had been weird about it to me, ever. I was always met with positivity regarding my heritage. Surprised to see you say this, to be honest.
middle eastern person says on internet that they haven’t experienced racism, must mean there’s no racism
Not what I wrote at all if you pay close attention but okay.
You seriously never met a racist Asian?
are you stupid? what makes you think i said that
You called out one group for being racist and said another was cool as if they are not also really racist
It’s true. I would extend this to the world, though. The world is generally fucking racist
Yes they are, and the USA just re-elected someone who tried to institute a Muslim ban.
who gives a shit about the US?
Dude… Have you met Asian & Jewish people?? They’re racist as f#*k 🤷🏽♀️ What I’m saying is: Racism is everywhere.
Edit: Added the end bit.
what makes you think i said otherwise?
Islam is a religion, not a race. It’s a set of ideas. I don’t think attacking the religion is morally wrong, as long as you don’t attack the races that commonly practice it.
Europe as a whole is swinging too far too the right. Y’all all are descending back into Fascism. The recent popularity of the AfD in Germany being a prime example. My own parents - who immigrated from Germany - are deeply disappointed in the direction the country is taking.
Pot, Kettle, Black. The US Republican party is about as, if not more fascist than the German AfD or Austrias FPÖ.
In comparison, the US Democrats are about where European conservatives can be located on the political spectrum.
This does not imply that the current political direction is not problematic.
Yes, but the US is already there and has a fascist at the helm so I’m assuming your parents immigrated elsewhere or this is a weird comment.
Smoking kills.
The numbers are a bit worse than I thought https://www.datapandas.org/ranking/smoking-rates-by-country.
As usual, Sweden is doing well. So are a lot of African countries.
Once years ago when I used to smoke, on was visiting Ghana and people were literally yelling at me for smoking in public. It’s illegal to smoke in public in a few African countries at this point IIRC.
Just came back from France it’s out of control there seemingly.
Why wouldn’t Europeans be ready to hear that? Pretty sure we’ve been hearing it on a regular basis since the 70’s
French food is wildly overrated, as is Paris.
If there’s anything Europeans know to be true, it’s that Paris is a giant tourist trap. Not worth it imo.
I love Paris with all my heart. And can absolutely agree, it’s a giant tourist trap.
What the french DID for food historically cannot be understated, but times change.
Most Europeans still have a casual sense of arrogance and superiority over the rest of the world. It’s not very heavy, but it’s there, even among some of the best people I know
I have a formal sense of arrogance, thank you.
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I don’t what the commenter is referring to specifically, but I encountered it as a young Australian working as a farm labourer. There were a couple of Germans working on the farm who looked down on me for having never travelled to Europe, and not being fluent in a second european language. The difference is that I was working for a living, and didn’t have the money for travel. They were just working there as an experience while travelling overseas. As an older person, I now see that as a class issue, but at the time I got the impression that Europeans were snobby. I suspect they just came from wealthier backgrounds.
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Yeah that’s a fair point. We make generalisations about people from other countries, but they’re not all the same. Later in life I lived in Germany while I was pursuing my engineering career, and felt more affinity with the engineers of similar background to myself than I do for rich people in my own country. Growing up in the 21st century in western countries somewhat blinds you to class awareness because the media and education system doesn’t discuss it but I feel that is starting to change now as online interaction breaks down those legacy barriers.
GDPR is great, but we all hate cookie banners
The cookie banner law isn’t the problem, websites don’t have to have one.
They only need to ask permission to invade your privacy.
Too bad nearly every website wants to.
ask permission to invade your privacy
I am not an expert in this area nor am I a lawyer, but I don’t think that’s the case; cookie banners are needed even for fairly standard functionality, not just the “we want to share your data with our 450 advertising partners” insanity sites. I remember seeing a long argument on reddit about whether you need a banner to be able to store user preferences (eg preferred language), and I believe the conclusion was yes, the law says you do, because it’s stored in the user’s device.
Or even just simple analytics. If the JavaScript on a website is throwing errors for users of a specific version of Firefox, then of course it would be good for the operator of the site to know that. There’s nothing nefarious about it. (I think there are ways around cookie banners for this sort of thing, since it can be considered “essential”, but you have to roll your own – using any pre-made service is a “third party” and necessitates the banner. So that makes actually doing this in a compliant way much more difficult.)
I think a real life equivalent would be if you walked into a store and there was a guy at the entrance like “By the way, we have cameras!” Like yeah no shit a retail space has cameras; leave me alone.
And of course, the actual consequence of this is that everyone is completely desensitized to cookie banners and doesn’t even read what they say. Many users just snap-click “ok” or “agree” or whatever button is to the right to make the annoying thing disappear. Or use browser extensions to try to make them go away completely. They have become completely useless.
Thinking of the camera analogy again, some places like Target and Walmart have camera systems as advanced as casinos’, using facial recognition and tracking as you go throughout the store. Allegedly they can even use body language to determine which products pique your interest so they can better advertise to you. Ok so yeah, wtf is even that, maybe I do want a nagging guy at the door so I can opt out of that bullshit. But if every store has a nagging entrance man, then that case isn’t distinguishable from the regular mom-and-pop trying to prevent theft! So again, useless.
Honestly, they’ve basically shitted on the intent of the GDPR last year when they started allowing sites to block users who did not choose to allow personalized ads as long as they had a “paid” alternative very few people are actually going to use. It was a perversion of what Google did, which was entirely different since they still allowed people to disable personalized ads and accept generic ads instead.
European car manufacturers largely suck ass, I’d rather buy a Hyundai or a damn Nissan than some French or German piece of crap.
Wish I could update my 10yo vw golf (which has served me very well) for something not electric. I know, I know, but I’m renting a flat, with a parking space, and only way to charge an electric would be on the street overnight, which is very inconvenient as well as damaging
Edit: but what I meant is you don’t know what you’re talking about
Great, go do the brakes with standard tools, oh wait, you have to use a special “triple square” tool instead of having a standard hex bolt like every other car. And on and on with the bullshit.
It takes me places though. I’m not a mechanic 🤷♂️
It still increases the cost of ownership and issues with reliability.
Europeans use cars from all car manufacturers. Hardly seen are Chinese brands.
Soooo, yah know.
I’d buy a European car before a Hyundai/Kia.
I am guessing you are from America. I am aware of the figures in terms of reliability, and Japanese manufacturers do a clean sweep in that area, and have done for decades. If that is your only metric, then you may be correct. German cars require religiously regular servicing, and will go wrong if this doesn’t happen fastidiously.
The US market get given a different range from many manufacturers. The VW range is objectively quite toned down in style and build quality. I presume because they would piss all over the domestic market if they didn’t.
Get into a hyundai or a Nissan in Europe and the difference in build quality, materials, aesthetic design and textures are worlds apart.
I have had a range of cars over the 30 years I have been driving, and this is my experience in the UK.
When you are forced to buy a car just to maintain a job or not be run over on your way to get groceries on the transportation “infrastructure” provided by American cities, reliability for a car does make the top of the list.
I did not see it that way. When you say it like that I guess that would change my perspective a little too.
