Regular reminder that being an asshole is not a symptom of any form of neurodivergence. (You can replace “neurodivergent” with depressed, anxious, bipolar, etc. and the diagram works equally well)
ETA: social faux pas, awkwardness, and genuine symptoms of neurodivergence don’t make you an asshole. I shouldn’t have to say this? An “asshole” is someone who enacts a pattern of abusive, controlling, harassing, and/or harmful behavior with no remorse or concern for how other people are affected.
Yeah I have two childhood friends that are brothers. Their other brother is very autistic. When we were kids a lot of people didn’t understand autism enough to get that while yes, his autism did affect the way in which he was a tremendous asshole, it didn’t cause it. He happened to have a shit personality and disability level autism
I guess MasterCard is either autistic or asshole now
I think it depends. My son is deep on the spectrum. He’s pretty pleasant, and he can tell if he’s making someone upset or angry, but often has no idea why.
I could absolutely see him being rude or making someone uncomfortable without knowing it, and in many cases I think it would be a challenge to help him even comprehend how or why he was doing so, even if he could tell it was happening.
One of the things that makes me feel the worst for him is when he can tell he’s not handling a situation “correctly” but has no idea why. It really upsets him.
So yeah, I cut people who I think might be ND some slack.
Seems like some users thought this thread was a free pass to question neurospicy folks legitimacy regardless of assholeishness. Cool lemmy.world, cool /s
It’s because the phrase “neurodivergence” is an umbrella term. It’s all but useless in the context given. That’s a fact no matter how cool and breezy you are about people with disabilities.
I have an older brother with cerebral palsy - I know no other life than one that sympathizes with people with disabilities. I dedicated my life to helping children with disabilities. I have worked with children with cerebral palsy, autism, adhd, dyspraxia, downs syndrome, retts syndrome, ALS and many other conditions and brain injuries for a chunk of my life spanning over 20 years. I was treating them from before Ritalin was used to treat patients with ADHD (in England at least).
The term “neurodivergence” is not useful in the context it is used in here. Everyone is neurodivergent, and the terms popularity modern times has tweaked it to mean something else that is not clear. A social media “tag” used as an umbrella term is just that. It’s not a diagnosis or an excuse because it’s not one thing.
It is exactly like saying “i have fibromyalgia” - because that is also an umbrella term that leads to the question, “What does that mean in this context?”
The umbrella term “neurodivergence” includes both conditions that aren’t an excuse and are an excuse for behaving like an asshole. Anyone can claim they are neurodivergent because they are. Therefore some people will use the term as an excuse for behaving badly no matter what their quirks are.
I agree but would qualify my agreement with a note:
Some of our neurodivergent traits come across as assholeish or rude behavior and while most of us try and temper and mask it does slip out especially in high stress situations.
Intention matters.
I think it’s my responsibility to explain to coworkers and make super sure they understand how I am especially after a high stress event (for me that’d likely be a server outage in production).
This is true! But there’s a very easy way to tell the difference.
When you find out you hurt someone’s feelings, do you apologize, express how terrible you feel about it, and try to do better? Not an asshole.
Do you double down, make excuses, and blame them for feeling bad? Asshole.
Saying the wrong thing doesn’t make you a jerk. Not caring about other people’s feelings, does.
Do you double down, make excuses, and blame them for feeling bad? Asshole.
I often inconvenience people in a particular way. (I’m very frequently late.) I apologize a lot but then I keep doing the same thing. It’s really hard for me not to, I get why this frustrates people, and I don’t blame anyone who refuses to put up with the inconvenience. However, people often assume that I keep inconveniencing them because I don’t respect them, and I want them to understand that that’s not what’s going on.
Hey that’s valid! A good friend of mine has the exact same thing. He’s up front about it, he apologizes when it’s excessive, and he’s more than happy to explain why it’s difficult for him. It’s just a thing, and if I’m going to be his friend, that means accepting it about him.
In other words, he’s done his best to help me understand him. Now it’s my turn to not be an asshole.
There’s absolutely a point where I’m not going to mask for the sake of social niceties. I try my best to not be a jerk though, but there are so many situations where I’ve been called rude for not following the NT script. For example, stopping someone, saying I don’t want to have a conversation right now, and walking away. Not an excuse to avoid difficult talks either, just when it’s a convo about whatever random thing and I don’t have the capacity to listen.
Intention matters.
It matters up to a point where the negatives outweigh the good intentions, same as everyone else.
The tough part is people hide when they’re offended, so you can’t even avoid doing the same faux pas in the future.
They just gossip behind your back about you being a jerk. Problem solved!
This looks like a MasterCard. I can’t unsee it.
Credit companies are indeed assholes
The diagram also looks like a butt. Assholes confirmed.
But are they neurodivergent?
I just clicked this post to write this 😭 🙏
“I don’t care what’s wrong with you. If you’re an asshole, you’re an asshole”
This has stuck with me for about 15 years now. A neurodivergent stage crew member who was consistently an asshole was being an asshole again, so this other kid just yelled at him and told him off. Everyone in the room gave him the shocked Pikachu face because he yelled at the ND kid. Someone said “dude, you cant yell at him” and then he laid down this quote.
Don’t yell at people. The right answer is to tell them that they are a problem privately.
The sentiment is right, but using the phrase wrong with you, might be a little harsh. There’s nothing wrong with them, they are who they are.
None of that excuses being an asshole though.
Wrong with you would be more like if they’re going through a breakup and they aren’t themselves, or going through grief over something etc.
But directed at a ND person where it can come off as being about their ND isn’t good.
Edit: “I don’t care what’s going on with someone, if they’re an asshole they’re an asshole” would be a better option
I don’t go around as a 30 something saying the words of a 15 yr old. Yes it is not as tactful as it should be and I understand the nuance but the idea is the same and I’m not going to change what happened.
I’m not going to change what happened.
Thats also fair. It’s a story you’re telling and it’s what happened.
Elon Musk.
Hell in the UK we had the (ex?) host of MasterChef, Greg Wallace, accused of being inappropriate with women in the workplace and making them feel unsafe and uncomfortable around him - Nothing illegal (that I know of), sure, but enough that he was rightfully dropped from whatever broadcaster was employing him.
Cut to a week into the tabloid media meltdown, Greg claims he “thinks he’s on the spectrum” as an explanation for his sexually explicit and creepy behaviour around women. The usual shit where you’re neuro typical until you’re a prick then you’re actually an autistic smol bean uWu.
When that didn’t help, he then showed his true colours by claiming the “typical” kind of woman (I’m assuming he’s referring to the trope of “ugly” women complaining about sexual harassment) making the complaints that got him fired.
I have an overwhelming urge to shop now.
This meme brought to you by pɹɐɔɹǝʇsɐɯ
You do not have to be friends with anyone! :D
I thought what we had was special 😢
Reminds me of once when a friend told me a story how someone watched his dick when he was peeing. When he got angry someone calmed him by sayong “Don’t worry, he is just gay.”
Yeah, why does this make sexual harasment any better?
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It’s exactly why I do not present any of the mental psychological isms my therapist gave me to other people. I’ve seen loads of folks who pretty much brag about these things—using them as excuses to be shitty or negligent people with no attempt at learning or practicing social skills. I run like the wind anytime I hear someone brag or lament (usually just a backdoor brag) that they are “empathic” or “highly sensitive.” I’m very cautious around people who bring up their “ADHD,” “anxiety disorder” or “autism”—especially if they do it regularly, publicly (on social media), or very early upon meeting them. And don’t get me started about personality disorders. I know people who are legitimately trying their best with all these things, but the genuinely responsible and aware folks seem to rarely wear those as kind of strange badges of identity.
It’s funny, because a common symptom of ADHD is oversharing, especially early on in a relationship when it’s less appropriate. This doesn’t make them an asshole, of course.
And for me it’s a way of communicating “hey, sometimes I’m gonna not think before speaking or lose attention mid conversation or something else, this isn’t me intentionally being disrespectful and I am trying not to, but sometimes I’m gonna fail so please don’t take it as a slight”
I’m direct and highly value honesty, but I’ve learned that’s no excuse for lacking tact. Being a minimal degree of kind and polite to neurotypical people isn’t particularly difficult, it’s just learning to interface with someone whose emotional drivers you may not completely share. It’s easier than learning to interface with a nonverbal species like a cat or a parrot.
How did you learn? I’m asking because that’s not something I’m seeing discussed here.
I don’t even think most of the commenters here have given it any thought.
It’s kind of important to the topic because at least part of the problem is that education is lacking both in NT and ND people as far as how we both developed healthy boundaries to mitigate “being an asshole”.
If nobody tells you your behavior is not acceptable in a way you can comprehend then it’s a communication issue and and education issue. If it’s that then we should discuss that.
I started by reading “How to Gain Friends and Influence People” by Dale Carnegie. It’s a bit dated but was required for a college course. It helped me realize there were certain actions/routines that would give me consistently okay results with most NTs. Not great, just okay, but okay was a huge improvement.
That helped alleviate the often crippling anxiety I felt in many social situations with new people. Free to actually think when around NTs who weren’t charmed by my ND data dumps, perplexing eye contact, and random obsessions, I was able to actively observe social interactions between myself and others. From there, it was a matter of trying different things and learning to lick my wounds when I blew it. My standard apology for doing something that made someone uncomfortable was along the lines of "I’m so sorry, that came across wrong. What I was trying to convey is (X). I’m not the best communicator sometimes, but I’m working on it. Can we start over? " with direct eye contact and a strong, chagrined, “practiced in the mirror” smile.
That’s the jist of it. Getting over the basic skills and confidence hump is the hardest. Once you have those, it’s really no different that practicing a sport or playing a game. It’s learning to act but for the purpose of being genuine with those who might not understand your natural inclinations.
One more post for this thread and then protecting my energy. Topic of great passion, interest and survival for me.
You are not an asshole for protecting your energy from abusive behavior.
The following must not be confused with abusive/asshole behavior:
https://purrfurnax.tumblr.com/post/750391775364104192
Social Ostracization and Bannishment should be a last resort only.
We can do better with communal moderation and conflict resolution.
I reccomend the youtube channel AnRel to address some of the greater nuances
Also, this playlist is something i return to every so often: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLaOxDnLZqNcmxxkuxTVxYnhrYEOeoTRjP
Yes, but it’s IMHO not as clear cut. Some of the things we do because of our executive function disorder can be interpreted as us being assholes by those we interact with. One can act like an asshole at times and not intrinsically be one. Some things are perceived as assholeish by some people but not others.
So my take on this is that they still need to be told they are behaving like an asshole. The behavior is inappropriate regardless of the reason. Like " Go away and come back when you have yourself under control and sorry this is hard for you."
Or a simple, “hey, that was rude. It hurt my feelings.” Most of the ND people I know would respond, “I’m so sorry, I didn’t mean to be a jerk. I’ll do better.”
Not all situations are simple. Someone is lashing out at people because their mother died. Everyone is understanding. But if you tell the person who is lashing out to cut it out because they’re being an asshole, then suddenly you’re an asshole, not the person behaving as an asshole initially.
There are a lot of similar situations with similar or other severity.
On the other hand, it’s not always something we actively do. If I lose focus on something I was doing with someone or on a conversation, I didn’t do it on purpose, and I literally couldn’t help it. I have definitely been called an asshole for it before, but calling me out on it doesn’t do anything but make me feel like shit cause it happened again, and as I know it always will, I now know you’ll always think I’m being one
There are simply fine lines. One problem I’ve seen is ND once diagnosed using their ND diagnosis as a crutch rather than a tool to understand and work with themselves.
Certainly there’s a level of “This person is ND and will never behave in a NT way” that society needs to accept and get over. But on the flip side, there are certainly ND people that will use it as an excuse to be an asshole rather than looking for tools to minimize the impact both on them and others.
I wear and need glasses. I’d be an asshole if I drove without them even though I have a medical condition that makes it hard for me to see without glasses. A ND diagnosis doesn’t mean that no rules need apply, it means that a struggle in life will be figuring out the best way to work around them.
Intention vs Impact. I recognize that it might not be my intention and it might be fully outside my control, but I was being an ass. Being called out when I do it is good and important, because it helps me figure out next steps - how do I recover from what I missed, how do I make them feel heard, do I have the type of relationship with this person to share my ND?
Part of accepting myself as ND is being able to be called an asshole, accept I was being an asshole, but understanding that it doesn’t make me a bad person and I shouldn’t feel bad about it since it was outside my control but use it as a chance to figure out the best next steps.
I think (hope) most people can tell the difference between symptoms of atypical neurology (lateness, awkwardness, forgetfulness, zoning out et al) and hurtful/abusive/controlling behavior. And if they can’t, they’re just not our people. That’s a whole different Venn diagram though
The behavior is inappropriate regardless of the reason.
There are tons of things that people do that are considered asshole or not asshole depending on who is involved, the context, and intentions.
Pointing out someone’s addiction issues is often a social offense because ‘everyone knows it’ and it causes trouble. But interventions are things, and friends calling someone out in public might be the way it gets through to them.
Sometimes people make fun of others in public which is fine if both of them are fine with it and they avoid certain topics, but those can vary widely by person and the audience.
Hell, pointing out that someone is being an asshole is often considered inappropriate!
