GUI is a generic swiss army knife. It’s easy to introduce to someone, and it has a whole array of tools ready for use. However, each of those tools is only half-decent at its job at best, and all of the tools are unwieldy. The manual is included, but it mostly tells you how to do things that are pretty obvious.
CLI is a toolbox full of quality tools and gadgets. Most people who open the box for the first time don’t even know which tools they’re looking for. In addition, each tool has a set of instructions that must be followed to a T. Those who know how to use the tools can get things done super quickly, but those who don’t know will inevitably cause some problems. Oh, but the high-detail manuals for all the tools are in the side compartment of the toolbox too.
I have literally never seen whatever this post is referring to
cool
This meme format never shows a scenario that isn’t made up anymore.
Tbh the terminal is super convenient. No random UI placement. Most things follow one of several conventions so less to get used to. It’s easy to output the results of one command into another making automation obvious, no possibility for ads. It’s pretty sweet
There are Windows evangelists?? 🤦🏽♀️
It’s wild that Linux stans are such masochists that they believe they can convert people to loving abuse, instead of just making the interface better to attract users.
What I consider a “better interface” is almost certainly not what a new user would consider a “better interface.”
I’ve found that one of the best things to do when making a library for something that is going to have a web interface is to first have it work in the terminal. You can much more quickly play around with the design and fix issues there instead of having to work with a more complex web interface.
You just create a simple menu system, like
input("1: Feature A\n2: Feature B\n>")and just start trying out all of the different scenarios and workflows.Just the other day, I was trying to run a CLI program, one I won’t name.
I’m trying out a new immutable distro, and couldn’t install it, so I said hey these new flatpaks are supposed to be all a guy could ever need.
So I downloaded an app that uses this unnamed CLI program as its core. It was a GUI app. And while it worked just fine, I also had very little control over what exactly was gonna happen and how it would happen. I wanted to do some specific things I knew the core program could do, but there was no way to do it.
Eventually I dug deeper and realized I’m an idiot and the CLI program can run without installing it or any dependencies, so it was fine to use natively. I was able to accomplish my task quickly and efficiently after that, happy as a clam.
CLI and GUI both have their place. I prefer GUI most the time, honestly. But having some CLI chops can be extremely useful at times.
I do most of my work at the command line, my co-workers do think I’m nuts for doing it, but one of our recent projects required us all to log into a client’s systems, and a significant portion of the tasks must be done via bash prompt. Suddenly, I’m no longer the team weirdo, I’m a subject matter expert.
Wait until they find out about Ansible.
Terminal is fun. I like being hackerman
Nothing wrong with CLI. It is fast and responsive.
Unless you want mainstream use. Because the majority of people can’t even use a UI effectively. And CLI is much worse.
This is the core of the argument. You can’t expected the average casual user to use CLI at all if you want mainstream adoption. The vast majority of people can barely operate Windows as-is, telling them to use a Linux CLI would be asinine.
There was a time before Windows where a lot of people used MS-DOS and it was all terminal. Maybe computers where less popular back in those days because of the learning curve, but still many people used a PC with just the terminal.
Oh absolutely. We’re in a very different age today though. Like hell I can’t imagine either of my own parents understanding the basics.
Yup. I made a scientific analysis program. Using CLI and your own editors you can do so much. And instead of focusing on making the algorithms, I had to focus on making a GUI for months because people need things to click.
And then even with very responsive and easy GUI, with like just 5 types of “views” and probably like <5 buttons/inputs each, people are like “it seems complicated” within like 1 minutes of demo. They haven’t even tried to use it or tried to learn anything. I even modeled the views to be as similar to another software they use.
I feel like people just don’t like computers.
I’m a programmer and I definetly don’t like computers.
Exactly. Most things need to optimize for the lowest common denominator of understanding, and buttons with words and fields that have explicit purposes and positioning are a much easier starting point than “use
command -helpand figure out the syntax yourself,” even if someone who learns the syntax could then possibly be more efficient at using it.
Having started out in programming before the GUI era, typing commands just feels good to me. But tbh Linux commands really are ridiculously cryptic - and needlessly so. In the 1980s and 90s there was a great OS called VMS whose commands and options were all English words (I don’t know if it was localized). It was amazingly intuitive. For example, to print 3 copies of a file in landscape orientation the command would be PRINT /COPIES=3 /ORIENTATION=LANDSCAPE. And you could abbreviate anything any way you wanted as long as it was still unambiguous. So PRI /COP=3 /OR=LAND would work, and if you really hated typing you could probably get away with PR /C=3 /O=L. And it wasn’t even case-sensitive, I’m just using uppercase for illustration.
The point is, there’s no reason to make everybody remember some programmer’s individual decision about how to abbreviate something - “chmod o+rwx” could have been “setmode /other=read,write,execute” or something equally easy for newbies. The original developers of Unix and its descendants just thought the way they thought. Terseness was partly just computer culture of that era. Since computers were small with tight resources, filenames on many systems were limited to 8 characters with 3-char extension. This was still true even for DOS. Variables in older languages were often single characters or a letter + digit. As late as 1991 I remember having to debug an ancient accounting program whose variables were all like A1, A2, B5… with no comments. It was a freaking nightmare.
Anyway, I’m just saying the crypticness is largely cultural and unnecessary. If there is some kind of CLI “skin” that lets you interact with Linux at the command line using normal words, I’d love to know about it.
typing commands just feels good to me
That’s because for the most part, it’s faster. You don’t have to lift one hand off the keyboard. Also using the cursor and clicking on something requires more precision and effort to get right compared to typing a word or 2 and hitting enter.
This is me kinda bragging, but at my typing speeds, something like
ls -lais under half a second. Typing cd proj (tab to auto complete) (first few letters of project name if it’s fairly unique) (tab to auto complete), hitting enter, and then typing a quickdocker compose upis an order of magnitude faster than starting the containers in docker GUI.But tbh Linux commands really are ridiculously cryptic - and needlessly so.
Agreed. Okay, to be fair, for parameters, most of the time you have the double-dash options which spell out what they do, and for advanced users there’s the shorthands so everyone should be happy. But the program/command names themselves. Ugh. Why can’t we standardize aliases for copy, move, remove/delete? Keep the old binaries names, but make it so that guides for new users could use actual English aliases so people would learn quicker?
At least part of this is the decentralized/complied nature of a FOSS operating system. You don’t get a command called grep because someone making design decisions about a complete system holistically decides that tool should be called grep. You get it because some random programmer in the world needed a way to find patterns in text so they wrote one and that guy called it grep and someone else saw utility in packaging that tool with an OS. It’s a patchwork, and things like this are a culture of sorts.
interesting you used grep because it’s a command that has a very clear origin.
in ed/vi the g command was used to run commands on some pattern. eg
g/[regex pattern]/[command]the p command was used to print current line so to print any line that matched the string “grep” you would do:
g/grep/p.when this was made into a seperate command it was called grep:
g/re/p. using re to denote regex.
The standard VMS text editor (EDT) assigned editing functions to the number keypad. Using it became so natural to me I eventually didn’t think about pressing keys, it was like using a car gearshift. I’ve never gotten to that point with any GUI editor, even with heavy use of keyboard shortcuts.
I’ve never met any windows evangelists to be honest. Lots of Apple evangelists though who will spend forever talking about windows. Every developer I’ve met who uses Windows always had a tongue in cheek sort of “well it kind of sucks in some ways but it’s what I’m used to, one day maybe I’ll get off my ass and change OS”.
Reminds me of the “I use Arch Linux btw” meme which doesn’t really happen as much anymore other than as a joke. Also, I use Arch Linux btw
Im not an evangelist for windows (I won’t try to convert you) but I’m unashamed of being a software engineer who uses Windows as my main dev platform
This is a wild guess but is C# one of your most used languages?
At work everything I do is in the Javascript/Web world. Typescript backend, webpack react, etc. I use C++ and C# for personal projects because I personally despise Javascript world
That’s like my opposite haha, all my own projects are TypeScript and vite react, at work I was working with C#. Though I do prefer static typing much more.
When I work on web projects at home I don’t use any javascript at all. Just html and css. Interactions are handled via form submission. I’m working on a forum in asp.net mvc without any javascript at all
Every developer I’ve met who uses Windows always had a tongue in cheek sort of “well it kind of sucks in some ways but it’s what I’m used to, one day maybe I’ll get off my ass and change OS”.
This used to be me, kind of. I’ve been an engineer for over 20 years, with the last couple being full time “developer.”
But I finally made that switch at work over a year ago (booting into Linux instead of using a VM) and at home a few months ago. This probably goes without saying, but I am never going back! It’s one thing to know there are options out there that people like you prefer, but it’s another entirely to get used to the better option then try the enshittified one again.
My guy, it’s because you’re the vegans of tech.
Nobody cares. It doesn’t need to be your personality.
Didn’t even know there were such a thing as evangelists for Windows
It’s an odd sort of evangelism. They almost never try to convince you Windows is good, just that everything else is worse.
It doesn’t. Nobody loves windows
Hi I like Windows, I use it as my primary development platform
I use it as my workstation at work as well. I’m a linux sysadmin and i prefer it as workstation compared to fedora or whatever lol
Windows just works, but I hate so much about it too, so I’m not a “windows evangelist”
I’d like to introduce you to BetaNews. The second one of the authors posts an article about anything Linux related, there’s this group that jumps straight to the comments about how much Linux sucks, it will never replace Windows, these Linux fanboys need to give it up already, etc. It’s so consistent that you could set your watch to what they say.
The ones I met really don’t know anything else. If you got to the point of being a Windows power user (slight oxymoron), having to start again on another platform is enraging when it seams different for the sake of it. It seams like others are cheating when achieving more using something else. They aren’t playing by the same rules!
Similarly, if you don’t know anything else and don’t know Windows really either, change is scary. Basically humans don’t like change and will fight to keep things unchanged, rather than embrace and utilize the change.
It’s all a matter of preference anyway (assuming you have both options anyway). CLI is less intuitive and takes longer to learn, but can be wicked fast if you know what you’re doing. GUI is more intuitive and faster to pick up, but digging through the interface is usually slower than what a power user can accomplish in the CLI.
It depends on what your use case is and how you prefer your work flow. The only dumb move is judging how other people like their setup.
