Ok, me and my wife are doing a re watch. I loved TNG and other Star Trek growing up, future is made great through tech, utopia is possible, go humanity, etc.
Wife’s watching the series. I dip in from time to time, I know some spoilers and how some characters are, but can’t remember a single plot all the way through. We watched the Pegasus (S7E12).
Like, it completely ruined Star Trek. Humanity and the federations before that point are going into all interactions with aliens, and we always assume they’re the good guys, always acting on good faith, the frustrations they have with other species is because the other species don’t believe how nice they can be, earth has no problems of racism or hunger or fucking whatever.
And then, no, we have clandestine , backstabbing stuff, fully known by the federation, covered up, everyone hushed, the research discontinued, but searched for so it can be dug up again. That research, which was done in direct, knowing violation of a peace treaty they cobbled together with the Romulans, which have been the semi bad guys in various episodes.
Well, if the fucking federation are known, lying backstabbing, black ops using, pride and wrath addled assholes, I also would look at them with distrust. No wonder the Ferengi don’t want to join the Federation, of course the Cardassians are attacking on the borders.
Every time they go to a space bar and dig around for information, all the other aliens are wearing some personable clothing with their own customs and history woven into the fabric, when these squares rock up wearing a space potato sack, talking about the greater good. Fuck off you Maoist assholes.
I love the series and the morals, but the worldbuilding is fucking destroyed with this episode. I assume this is what gives way to the section 31 film and all that.
I’d love to hear some counterarguments. I loved seeing Star Trek as a utopia, and with humanity being their best with great leadership. I want to go back to that point of view.
PS : Also, Picard says to decloak right in front of the romulan warbird, then they never show that conversation. I want to know how he talked his way out of that one, and the rammifications. We’re about to watch sub rosa, and I am looking forward to the source of all the beverly ghost fucker memes.
If that was too much skullduggery for your taste then you really shouldn’t watch Deep Space Nine.
Computer, delete that entire personal log.
In the Pale Moonlight was such a goddamn great episode though.
its such a goddamn great episode that all it took was for you to reference to deleting the entire personal log for me to immediately know what you’re talking about.
its such a goddamn great episode that I actually know the name of the damn episode.
Oh, you know that’s right.
(I love DS9 so much though…)
I see this as an episode about humans being… human. That despite significant advances in human civilization towards a socialist utopia, there is still greed and a lust for power in humanity, and that strong steps still need to be taken to blunt those evils.
Picard decloaking in front of the Romulans may not have translated well to Romulan mores, but it’s an attempt to re-establish trust, a way of saying, “we don’t tolerate shit like this, and here is us exposing this malfeasance to prove our dedication to being honest.”
I mean, the Romulans will most certainly assume the worst, because they will project onto humans that which they are most likely to do themselves. But at least Picard is holding true to what the Federation stands for, which means airing dirty laundry such that the Federation can learn from it.
I see this as an episode about humans being… human. That despite significant advances in human civilization towards a socialist utopia, there is still greed and a lust for power in humanity, and that strong steps still need to be taken to blunt those evils.
Yeah, that’s why knowing there are some black ops (illegal infiltration of cardassians, bending the rules on the prime directive) seemed “ok ish” , but this time it wasn’t an isolated case or someone’s gone rouge, or one writer making a shitty episode. This one was whole cloth, institutionalised , embedded, wholesale corrupt , dishonest and breaking treaties actions taken by all levels of federation leadership, and the creative team coming on board with “yeah, federation aren’t all that they seem”.
Picard decloaking in front of the Romulans may not have translated well to Romulan mores, but it’s an attempt to re-establish trust, a way of saying, “we don’t tolerate shit like this, and here is us exposing this malfeasance to prove our dedication to being honest.”
I mean, the Romulans will most certainly assume the worst, because they will project onto humans that which they are most likely to do themselves. But at least Picard is holding true to what the Federation stands for, which means airing dirty laundry such that the Federation can learn from it.
great perspective
but this time it wasn’t an isolated case or someone’s gone rouge, […]. This one was whole cloth, institutionalised , embedded, wholesale corrupt , dishonest and breaking treaties actions taken by all levels of federation leadership,
Except… was it?
It’s been a while since I watched that episode, but my memory and impressions was that of the Admiral (then Captain) having this as a pet project. As in, an extremely limited skunkworks project that was heavily siloed away from the rest of the Federation command structure.
It’s only when the ship was at risk of being discovered that the cover-up expanded. And with that Admiral still in the pole position, calling the shots. So it still appears to be of limited scope/corruption.
https://lemmy.world/post/30261184/17288875
PICARD: You know, it wasn’t easy to get this record. I had to pull in quite a few favours at Starfleet just to get a look at it. It seems that it was classified by Starfleet Intelligence. later PICARD: The Judge Advocate also believes that the surviving officers are deliberately withholding vital information from this inquiry. Further investigation is recommended. Will, there was no further investigation. This report was classified and then it was quietly buried. Why? RIKER: Sir, may I suggest you take this up with Admiral PICARD: I’m taking this up with you, Will! The Judge Advocate thought you were participating in a conspiracy to cover up the truth. Now, what the hell is going on here, Will? The judge advocate on the case is not in on the secret. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t go higher, but the conversation does imply that whoever was involved had limited authority to, say, prevent that inquiry in the first place, or to instruct the judge advocate to avoid sensitive topics. Someone did have the authority to classify and bury the report. Maybe that’s something the Chief of Intelligence could do unilaterally.)`
The less said about the s31 film, the better.
DS9-era s31 plot lines were legit because it was pointedly asking the question, and doing it well. The movie was just… I mean, as far as I can tell, it was an infantile cash grab.
I find Pegasus a decent episode. I think that while utopian aspiration is a fundamental tenet of Star Trek, I think it’s a bit reducto e to call it completely a show about perfect humans.
Heck, from the get go we had Garry Mitchell doing pyscho god stuff and Charlie X groping people, and a captain who sacrificed his crew to the weird space Romans so he would survive.
I think in truth, Star Trek is both about the best humanity can be and how the best in humanity can overcome the worst in humanity - you can’t exactly do that without episodes where the protagonists or the Federation makes mistakes, sometimes small and sometimes on the magnitude of Pegasus.
In many ways, DS9, darker as it is, feels the most Trek - a team of very different people with different beliefs overcoming/respecting their differences and forming a beautiful community despite the folly and evil around and within them.
I liked the eps where even, gasp! StarfleetOfficers! made errors. Example: the ep set at the Academy, when cadets learn about the no win scenario, not presented as a simulation, but as a moral decision in an emergency. IIRC “Measure of a Man”? The least irritating ep of Wesley growing up, without being coddled by the Enterprise crew. I thought the acting from the cadets was pretty good throughout.
Picard knows this could become a massive incident and it goes above his pay grade as a starfleet captain to try and explain a situation he himself doesn’t know the whole story about and kind of just fell into. He wants to get out of there without triggering a war. It’s a great response. Let the admirals or Federation Ambassadors figure this out. They are the ones that created this mess.
Also more practically I bet they didn’t have the runtime to add that conversation into the episode. Would have been at least a minute.
They could have cut the entire scene of Riker in sickbay with a broken rib. We know he’s flustered and distracted, but I suppose we needed to ensure Beverly has something to do in the episode.
I have this crazy headcannon that the stuff we see on the show is propaganda for the federation; and while it portrays this utopian ideal of a post-economic paradise, but was something far more sinister.
Imagine, if you will, that the Federation is rather more authoritarian. sinister and evil.
I mean, why do you think they don’t care about TOS Redshirts, the engineers and doctors, all the people who die because they can’t be bothered to install seatbelts and surge protectors? just population control.
“exploration” ships that have combat parity with multiple warships of the next most powerful factions? Children and families on those “exploration” ships as sentient shields? also excess-population control. and excellent propaganda.
Sure, most narration is unreliable and it’s difficult to imagine an organization so advanced as to be so consistently incompetent… damn. Got me questioning if the Prime universe Starfleet are the baddies.
really has you thinking, doesn’t it?
You… Should watch Star Trek more throughly.
There have been plenty of episodes like Pegasus well before Pegasus. An easy one that comes to mind is a pretty famous one: The Drumhead.
In Star Trek the United Federation of Planets have built themselves a utopia. And yet they still have enemies, they still have wars. Star Trek doesn’t just show Humans being in this utopia, but also the vigilance towards keeping it that way.
The Pegasus is a great example of some part of Starfleet sliding back, but then the crew of the Enterprise D taking the high road and upholding the morals they believe in. The morals that makes the UFP a utopia.
You… Should watch Star Trek more throughly.
Yep, I could definately do with more.
There have been plenty of episodes like Pegasus well before Pegasus. An easy one that comes to mind is a pretty famous one: The Drumhead.
Will try to get to that one sometime, from the synopsis though, it seems the corruption/maleficence is just bound to the antagonist du jour , and not completely systematic, but will need to watch the ep. Thank you.
In Star Trek the United Federation of Planets have built themselves a utopia. And yet they still have enemies, they still have wars. Star Trek doesn’t just show Humans being in this utopia, but also the vigilance towards keeping it that way.
The Pegasus is a great example of some part of Starfleet sliding back, but then the crew of the Enterprise D taking the high road and upholding the morals they believe in. The morals that makes the UFP a utopia.
Great viewpoint. thank you for sharing it with me.
He didn’t have to talk his way out, the romulans got what they love: proof their enemy are actually all cheating liars.
That commander got some serious awards for that, it was a massive romulan victory, they’ll be using it to show the federation are all worse cheats than everyone for centuries.
Also, you need to never watch in the pale moonlight.
Because you can’t live with it…
What ruins this episode for me is that it’s canonically
Enterprise spoiler in case someone still hasn't seen it.
Riker does his stupid holodeck episode for Enterprise’s Finale.
I need to rinse my brain with some TOS after being reminded of that. Still appreciate you bringing it up, but just… ew.
I’d say no problem anytime but somehow that’s not appropriate for this context.
whispers into your ear
Decon gel.
Please, do some sort of text based let’s watch of Sub Rosa. Don’t take time to recover, just post it, stream of consciousness
I’d love to but we have little time with a baby, studying for certificates, exercise, couples time etc, but will tell you my thoughts since you’re curious.
The wife and I thought the episode where she illegally disected the ferengi scientist was stupid, either from writing or character perspective, but it didn’t ruin the show since it’s one ep/character, so more stupid Beverly isn’t going to be as bad for me as this one was.
Sub rosa is “so bad you can make fun of it”
It’s not even star trek, but at least it doesn’t harm the canon. It’s another “Beverly is a dumb ass” ep. Scooby Doo in fake Scotland. I’m surprised they resisted making space bagpipes, and I found groundskeeper Willie hilarious.
They tried to sci fi it right at the end, anphasic matter bs.
I expected geordi to end up doing “my VISOR! I can’t see anything without my VISOR!”
Sub Rosa always gets my nacelles humming and ready to warp.
That part of the peace treaty never made sense to me. Am I forbidden to research cloaking technology? Fuck them, guess what is the first thing I’m gonna figure out how it works and learn to make a much better one.
If they want I’ll refrain from deploying it as long they behave.
