Dam maybe some of the American automakers who took billions in subsidies should have built cheaper cars instead of the largest trucks possible to skirt regulations.
I literally can’t afford an American car, i can afford a BYD tho.
When Americans of all political stripes finally wake up to global realty, they’ll most likely do it lying on a sidewalk, naked in the rain, with their fingers in their ears saying na-na-na-na-na-na…
People will eventually have to face that the economic golden age of the 1950s and 60s wasn’t a normal state we can return to if greedy billionaires just let us. The rich definitely grabbed the biggest share of the prosperity, but that brief era of prosperity wasn’t normal, it was entirely abnormal, and it’s been over for quite a while. We’ve been fooling ourselves and keeping it going for the last half century by living on credit, and that’s about to end. I don’t know what new era is about to start, but the American era is over.
The same thing happened in the 80s with Japan. The Japanese were no longer making crappy cars but small and very reliable, affordable cars. Detroit was still making rust buckets, obsessing over powerful engines with bodies that rotted out and defects galore. Detroit got beaten up badly (Chrysler had to get a gov bailout) until they cleaned up their act and improved their products. Protecting Detroit from competition would’ve just saddled US consumers with decades more of crappy, overpriced, low quality, cars.
https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/how-detroits-automakers-went-from-kings-of-the-road-to-roadkill/
We still don’t let in the small pickups the rest of the world enjoys.
I would kill for a small electric truck… Telo is calling my name, but they don’t have a functioning product yet.
defects galore
A friend of mine from high school attended the GM Institute and became an engineer for them. One of his first projects was on a team that bought a Lexus and an Infiniti when they first came on the market and took them apart to see how many production defects they had. He said a typical American car at the time (and this was in the '90s after quality had rebounded somewhat from its disastrous nadir) had 300-400 defects. The Infiniti they took apart had 2. The Lexus had 0.
Meanwhile, instead of trying to compete they cripple all EV advancement to make a quick buck on fossil fuel.
Maybe the USA should heavily invest in the industry of the USA, just like China does, in order to keep up? No, then USian companies would have oversight & have to meet expectations, and we all know that they wouldn’t want that.
That would require companies roll profits back into development and their employees instead of pocketing it all, schemes like stock buybacks and wall st traders.
I hate that the US is like this. People would EASILY pay more for American if the quality was there. But ffs they don’t even try anymore. They just make slop and expect us to pay more for it.
Which sucks because I did use to think that “Made in the USA” meant better quality.
Also labor price is unmatched. Nobody would work for the wage they give to children in China, so you can’t really go that much cheaper while not sacrificing safety.
Not saying Chinese cars are that well made.
Very few children work in china right now, Chinese workers even have 5 days of vacation a year by law.
That’s 5 more than the US…
There were probably more children working on farms in the US than in china, and I remember something about Florida wanting to reinstate child labour again?
This is the slavery they are refrencing i think.
BYD did get caught using slave labor.
https://apnews.com/article/brazil-slave-labor-china-car-factory-byd-991c5670eefdd564fd465648b77b3869
Like we don’t have child labor here in the good ol’ USA.
That’s true, but we could subsidize the cost of labor too. People make a living wage, but the company pays less than that because government covers the difference.
China has compulsory education for children just like America. There’s no child labor in China.
They pay adult workers less in China, but these yuan has 7x buying power than the dollar in China
That’s what Chinese propagandists want you to think, there are way more people living in (borderline) poverty (per capita) than in the US.
Social media is being fed with a slice of mainland China, but anything beyond that is people struggling to keep ends meet.
Only if they chose not to compete
Have you seen those byd cars on YouTube. Their mid price cars look like high end Mercedes over here. Meanwhile Ford and Chevy will sell you a $75000 pickup with all plastic interior.
None of the legacy companies are competing. Ever. The best we can hope for is rivian and other new players filling the gap.
The income stream would disappear, their operations would collapse and that would just be the end. There would not be another manufacturer that would flourish in the void left behind. Without the institutional know how and the existing structure, supply chain the current car manufacturing industry would never be able to restart if it ever stopped.
The social darwinism of the globalist free market is meant for crushing the spirit and bargaining power of individual workers, they are replaceable, disposable, interchangeable. General Motors and Ford aren’t.
I think that’s kind of the point. What the current case industry is doing is getting them smoked. They need to let go of the past the “institutional knowledge” that’s exactly why Ford and Chevy won’t compete with Chinese EV. Those are built from the ground up for the modern era with modern leadership modern supply chains building institutional knowledge that matters today and into the future. I would love nothing more than to drive a Ford EV. I am considering the f150 lightning but in comparison to things I see online it’s really far behind.
The problem is the world is transitioning to EVs, and burying your head in the sand won’t change that. Legacy manufacturers could be trying to find their place in the new world while they can, or they can stick with technology of the past, let someone else come to dominate the new technologies, and be left with a ever shrinking market until they disappear
Well they’d have to cut c-suite and shareholder’s cut because everything else that could be squeezed out has already been squeezed out, so the c-suite and shareholder will convert their money into the political power it takes to just block out the competition.
I don’t disagree with the criticisms of American cars – overpriced, uninspired, unreliable, over-engineered, etc. – but to everyone saying “we should just compete”, do you realize the realities that Chinese workers experience? Have you heard of 996? It’s shorthand for a common work schedule in China: 9am to 9pm, 6 days a week. Benefits that are common in the U.S., even in non-union shops, like retirement plans, PTO, worker’s comp, and overtime pay are rare. So, yeah, things can be made much cheaper if you are willing to feed your workforce into the grinder.
I will strongly disagree with “over engineered”. Why a car company with all their money and bailouts that they can’t compete with Apple/Android on touchscreen features and responsiveness is the whole reason why Chinese cars will kill American car companies. Chinese cars support Android auto even when Google play services isn’t even available in China (last I checked).
Okay, I’ll concede that point to you. U.S. carmakers suck at software. And, even on the hardware, they’re resistant to change and slow to innovate.
So we should then let American oligarchs drive American workers to the same but slower? because that is what has happened so far
That is certainly their wet dream, now that they can’t easily just move their manufacturing to China and reap all of the benefits like they could 70s - 90s.
Exactly, which is why I’m left scratching my head why the US wants to bring manufacturing back to the US. We’re much better of growing the well-paying jobs where our education systems can compete favorably vs bringing back jobs that compete with low-paying jobs…
where our education systems can compete favorably
LOL are you sure about that?
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-highest-literacy-rates-in-the-world.html
China ranks higher than the USA in literacy rates
Sure, but the US has a lot of well-educated people (e.g. see the Education Index), as well as a lot of opportunities for well-educated people to get in-demand jobs that pay well.
Literacy rates are interesting, but they don’t translate to well-paying jobs like education attainment rates.
Sure, but the US has a lot of well-educated people (e.g. see the Education Index), as well as a lot of opportunities for well-educated people to get in-demand jobs that pay well.
There are more Indian Engineers in the USA than American ones… and Trump is destroying all of it
The way things are going for you, nobody with a half a choice would decide to migrate to the USA for work
Right, and that’s completely brain-dead. We should be wanting to attract more talent, because more people able to take high-end jobs usually ends up creating more high-end jobs. We want more immigrant engineers, doctors, etc, because that encourages greater investment since the labor pool is deeper.
But no, we’ll instead block cheap imports and encourage more blue-collar work, and if we take that too far, we’ll end up in a similar situation as we did back in the Great Depression when demand just evaporates.
We should let developing countries develop and focus on what developed countries are better at: innovation. Attract top talent and keep investment dollars flowing so the R&D jobs stay.
LOL losers, your education is shit compared to Chinese.
You’ve got nothing to offer to the world.Hold on, in advanced education here in my area of the states, almost half the population of students in classes I see are of Chinese or Indian backgrounds and most are here on foreign visas.
If the education is so shit, why are there so many foreign students studying here and paying insane amounts of money to do so.
I’d think enrollment rates would be a severe lagging indicator of education quality. Institutions could likely coast on reputation for quite some time after education quality tanks. Inertia is powerful, and some could even knowingly decide to go to poor educational institutions just for the status it still gives among peers and in their community.
That said, I have no first hand experience with US higher education, and wouldn’t know what the quality really is, just saying that enrollment rates probably aren’t a great indicator of it.
but to everyone saying “we should just compete”, do you realize the realities that Chinese workers experience? Have you heard of 996?
I get what you are saying, but sometimes I think we should in a way, or at least we should get republicans exposed to it, so they can live their hogwash ideas of free markets.
It won’t be them living the reality though, it will be their subordinates and employees. The same ones already being crushed to death by production metrics, stagnation of wages and inflation. The people involved in these decision making processes are too well shielded from the actual consequences, beyond maybe driving past and seeing the ruins of what used to be towns/cities/neighbourhoods destroyed by the free market and social policies.
Removed by mod
What did i write that is sinophobic?
American cars have sucked compared to Asian cars since the 1970s. I don’t understand why people are acting all surprised that this is true in respect to BYD. Sure in the past products designed in China were stereotyped as poor quality knock offs of western designed goods, but in the past decade Chinese engineers have increasingly proven themselves as perfectly capable of making solid, innovative designs that improve upon those of their competitors. I think it’s kind of fucked up that everyone is so suddenly upset about China’s role in the world economy since everyone was completely fine using them for cheap labor over the past several decades and are just mad that Chinese companies are beating them at high skill labor and technology. Chinese companies do have an “unfair advantage” given how much they are backed by the Chinese government but American companies receive all sorts of money from the government for all sorts of things as well.
The “unfair advantage” bit has been incredibly funny to me ever since I sat in a call to prepare a joint research proposal and the representative of a certain large euro automotive supplier told us that their company would only participate in any project if they got at least a certain amount of government funding.
They went through a period in the 90s where they had a huge leap in quality and almost matched Japanese imports of the time. I’d say GM is the only one who’s drivetrain quality is still on any comparable level with Asian imports. Ford gets some parts really right but then their beancounters make really dumb cuts to critical components that make many of their vehicles near lemons. I can’t think of a worse car manufacturer in the world right now than Stellantis, and they aren’t an American company anyway.
Americans have come to think of Chinese products as bad quality because of the American companies who engage them for cheaper labor. Walmart was known to order products made to a certain spec one year, then the next year demand the company increase production, but for the same amount paid as the previous year. The Chinese company, not wanting to lose the contract, obliges, but corners have to be cut. It should be called Americanesium, not Chineseum.
Derek Guy (Die, Workwear!) posted a thread a while back (I think about 6 months ago) about how the Chinese can and do make great quality products, pointing out high quality fabrics. Give them money to buy good raw materials, give them a decent wage, and they’ll put out a good product. Honestly, they probably have a more fair work ethic than some American companies that just feed their CEOs massive salaries or are owned by private equity.
Its largely american cope that they are not that good at manufacturing anymore. Chinese factories build things to spec, and the customer asks for cheap, so they get cheap.
Honestly, there’s a wide range of quality of stuff produced in China, but the expensive stuff isn’t getting brought over. The better stuff is either being used domestically or exported to India/SEA. From my limited experience importing stuff, the biggest common factor is the lack of final quality control. I ordered some small diesel engines because no else makes those but Yanmar and Yanmar prices themselves way out of my range. Even Yanmar doesn’t sell a 5hp engine. The 196cc Chinese diesel was well designed, the parts well built, but final assembly lacks consistence on the bolt torque spec and there was metal shaving left in the crank case. The bigger, more expensive diesel made by a different company had much better quality control, although it’s still necessary to flush the crank case. No one over there seems to do that.
Newsflash: American car manufacturer says “Our cars are crap and overpriced”
Michael Dunne is actually someone who worked in Chinese Automotive manufacturing. He’s the Chinese car manufacturer saying “Chinese cars are good and cheap.”
His word is basically meaningless.
Domestic US cars can’t compete with foreign cars. We’ve known that forever. Or at least since the 90s.
Look no further than Kei trucks being illegal.
Our overengineered, over priced, unnecessarily complicated crap just can’t compete with simple transport vehicles because they aren’t made as a tool to serve a purpose. Everyone wants to make a Corolla into a Cadillac and sell it for Cadillac prices.
Hmmm. I think US cars can absolutely compete. Here is the problem. Foreign manufacturers make cars that people want to buy. American manufacturers make cars that they want to sell. These two things are not the same.
I want Ford Escorts, Geo Metros, VW Rabbits. I want a small, uncomplicated, economy shitbox. A small cheap car that my broke ass can fix when it breaks. And no car company that makes cars in this country makes that anymore.
Right? The only thing on the market for EVs in the US right now is “luxury” crossovers and trucks. What people really want is an electric civic hatchback.
Mourning the loss of the Saturn in the world.
Makes me think of Dell.
Domestic US cars can’t compete with foreign cars. We’ve known that forever. Or at least since the 90s.
Growing up in the 90s in Wisconsin, all the conservatives around me always talked shit about foreign cars.
I can’t comprehend how they justified it. But I also knew nothing about cars.
It was only back in ~2016 that I realized how much building a car is similar to building a computer. Supply chains, common parts, designs made to fit common “cases”. Etc etc.
Former GM Executive: BYD cars are better and cheaper than American. If we let BYD into the U.S. Market, we wouldn’t be able to be greedy and enshitify our products any more, which would end up destroying american car manufacturers. FTFY.
P.S. Actually the average american would be benefited from that
They have never considered actually competing have they?
Detroit is easy to hate but there’s more wrong here than how much can-do energy they wake up in the morning with. If they competed on features and quality they could never compete on price. Everything we do to keep the dollar strong makes it impossible to manufacture here.
Michael Dunne has been competing the entire time, for the Chinese. His statements here aren’t fear, they’re shillery.
They’ve actually done the exact opposite. The lobbying, the import laws, the absence of a foreign export market, and the manufacturing of cars that would never pass safety laws anywhere else, all resulted in the kind of dogshit that Americans have to experience now. Why improve if you’re the only player
Nah man, that’s not the purpose of unrestrained capitalism. The point is to get big enough that you can buy out all the competition, then make your product cheaper and cheaper once there’s no one to compete against. It’s a bit like an economical algae bloom.
Couldn’t have a thought further from his mind
If you’re one of the largest and oldest car manufacturers in the world and the most “innovative” thing you’ve managed to do in the last 20 years is rebrand Buick into a young family brand, then you probably need some good competition.
Don’t forget the courage to not support CarPlay/Android Auto … just stupid.
GM, maker of horribly shitty cars, and yeah, the Corvette, we know. We’ve seen it, GM.
“do you want to see the C9?”
…of course I would.
So free markets are a terrible idea now and countries practicing import substitution weren’t impoverishing their people.
US hypocrisy at it’s finest.
Free markets were always a terrible idea, the USA economic system was basically founded on principles of regulation of goods like tea, tobacco, and alcohol.
Our free market’s good, yours is the problem! Gotta read the fine print!
„Free market“? Speaking of hypocrisy. Chinese car brands are so heavily subsidized they probably cost the Chinese economy more than they make selling them at the moment. China is clearly trying to drown the global market with cheap cars so they can ramp up prices immensely once they have killed the competition and have become a monopoly. China hasn‘t been the extreme low income country to produce super cheaply for a long time and they couldn‘t produce cars this cheap in a free market situation.
Many countries and the EU have measures against such practices because state run operations with the sole purpose to destroy an industry (which this is) undermine the very idea of the free market or even trade relationships.
Alternatively we could start subsiding local car makers and play the same little game China is playing but more cars is honestly the last thing we need right now. Tariffs are a much smoother option to deal with this even when they have a bad rep.
Ideally we use that generated money from tariffs to subsidize public transport so we don‘t get cheaper cars but cheaper alternatives but that‘s still just a dream I‘m afraid.
Whatever the case, one should look at super cheap cars and what that means in the long run more critically.
Alternatively we could start subsiding local car makers
We have been. Bailout after bailout. For the longest fucking time, and have had insane trade rules and tarrigs in place for decades and decades. I’d argue this is what it looks like to have another country finally being able to play on a level playing field.
After the auto industry intentionally killed public transport.
The fact that one of the most powerful monopolies in the world went bankrupt and was forced to be bailed out by taxpayers more than once should really be a disqualifier for any future endeavors.
you accidentally forget to pay ur credit card minimum for one month and you’re docked so many credit score points that you’re ineligible for being given a loan.
but we bail out these megacorps time and again and just keep letting them operate like nothing’s amiss
shit’s borked (intentionally, to favor those with means)
Is it a level playing field? In China workers rights are pretty non-existent and there’s no OSHA equivalent, at least not to the degree we have in the US. Then add in government subsidies, lower worker pay, reduced R&D costs because they pilfered the engineering from a US company, and you end up with a very lopsided market.
To be clear, I am in no way defending the US auto industry. They have little customer loyalty for a reason – low quality, overpriced, subscription dependent vehicles with terrible warranties, expensive service requirements, and invasive telemetry. They need more competition to force them to make more consumer-friendly decisions, but China is hardly a fair competitor.
When was the second bailout? Or the first if you’re referring to something older.
You can‘t compare a bailout with an aggressive offensive. Especially since western car makers and many other manufacturers outsourced to China in the process. There are few to no parallels to be drawn here. A more accurate, albeit tasteless comparison would be the China opium wars. Because that‘s essentially what they‘re aiming to do: Making us addicts to their product. They‘re selling us the stuff at a loss because they know we‘ll come back for more and before we know it we‘re completely hooked. It‘s the exact same thing they‘re doing with Temu and TikTok.
We have subsidized the big three many times, and they return nothing back. At this point, they should be nationalized.
You have a very simple way of looking at things and are part of the problem that is going on.
Your ignorance is showing. Tuck it in.
You tankies really have a way with words.
It’s not a free market.
BYD is heavily subsidized .
Pretty sure big oil and car companies have been bailed out by the US government in the past. Plus america designs most of its cities so that you need to own a car. Seems like both markets are equally “free” at the end of the day.
The majority shareholder at GM is the US treasury.
One of the majority holders at Stelantis is their workers’ union.
A one time loan which made money is hardly a subsidy by comparison to China right now. That’s an absurd comparison. Apples to oranges. Hell apples to baseballs.
There is also CAFE standards that made small, effecient vehicles require extremely high emissions standards while allowing looser standards for larger, less effecient vehicles. Effectively limiting foriegn market influence while increasing both the price and size of the average vehicle on American roads.
That’s not a competitive subsidy though. Anyone can and don take advantage of those emissions. The US does not have access to China subsidized materials or labor to compete in that market.
BYD could build here and take advantage of that.
That’s fine.
